Neurodiversity Leadership Coach and Speaker
Neurodiversity and inclusivity in the workplace Jessica Michaels 0:01 The first thing they asked me is, so how do I tell who on my team is neurodivergent? And I say, you don’t? And don’t? Don’t ever try. Don’t ever try. And please don’t tell anybody I told you to do that. Because you unless they tell you you will not know. And they might not know, you know, we talked about we haven’t really gotten into, you know why so many neurodivergent people don’t know that they’re neuro divergent, because they’ve never been diagnosed or because they don’t realize that the world in their brain is different than the world in somebody else’s brain. Like what a weird concept is that, so you’re never going to know. And but that shouldn’t stop you from being neuro inclusive. Because again, it doesn’t matter why maybe this person on your team prefers to answer you in email, like after a meeting, they need the day to think and then they’re going to respond an email, or why this person doesn’t really like to do morning meetings, or whatever it is. It doesn’t matter if that’s because of ADHD, or because they are in a bus on the way to work, or whatever it is, because it just is.
Jolene Mei 1:15 Hello, everyone. This is Jolene Mei, your host for the Diversity podcast, where we talk with real people doing real work in the diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging space. If you want to explore what people are doing right, what positive impacts are happening, or even how positive changes can be done. You’re in the right place. We welcome you to join us. Today we have Jessica Michaels with us. Jessica is a neurodiversity leadership coach and speaker at the neurodiverse workplace. They are passionate about increasing awareness and acceptance of neurodiversity and neuro inclusion, making workplaces that are supportive and allow all employees to do their best work. Jessica speaks on how to make workplaces neuro inclusive, and they specialize in the intersection of neuro inclusion and leadership. Their presentations have been described as captivating, relevant and thought provoking. They challenge the condition thought that neurodivergent characteristics don’t equate to leadership, Jessica believes that neurodivergent leaders can learn how to leverage their high spec talents and work through communication challenges. And lastly, Jessica met their spouse when they were both performing a stand up comedians, Jessica collects elephants, bells and books that they intend to read, but will likely not be able to do in their lifetime. So without further ado, welcome, Jessica. So happy to have you today.
Jessica Michaels 2:32 So happy to be here.
Jolene Mei 2:34 Yes. And, um, let’s go ahead and get started. I’m again, looking forward to learning from you today, and seeing what our listeners will learn as well. But to start us off, I know I said a lot about you, but from yourself. Tell us about your background, your personal mission and the work that you do. Yeah, absolutely.
Jessica Michaels 2:49 So I am by day, and by professional learning and development specialists. So I create and facilitate corporate trainings and focusing specifically on manager development and leadership. And when I was in my late 30s, I was experiencing kind of a problem that I had experienced before at work, which was, I would be a great performer, I get promoted, I lead a team and then in managing, all of a sudden the wheels would come off, my team would have this totally different perception of me than I had of me. And it happened, you know, every five or 10 years, the same thing. And so that caused me to to seek out a diagnosis of what I didn’t know. But I ended up finding out that I was autistic and ADHD. And that really started me on a journey and ultimately shaped my career. And because I became very passionate about making sure people had the resources that I wish I had had when I got that diagnosis. And so that really has been the thing that has driven me forward from that point. Yeah,
Jolene Mei 3:58 thank you so much for sharing. I think also, I hope that if anyone’s listening, maybe they would even have experienced that were when they started managing the wheels fall off. And I’m sure we may be hearing more and more as you know more people get more comfortable talking about mental health in general, I think mental health has really been on the forefront more in these past few years. I personally have even experienced people coming out and telling me like, like I found out that I was diagnosed with a B or C like that explains all of these things, and resources so important, and I hope that that continues to grow. Before we get into today’s conversation. I also wanted to do a quick mention to your book that’s coming out one size fits no one. So tell me more about that before we get into today’s conversation.
Jessica Michaels 4:41 Yes. So one size fits no one is the culmination of my efforts in providing neuro inclusive training, corporate training, and I really when I got diagnosed, and I started to really look at myself In my work, I realized that a lot of the things that I was putting out into the corporate world that employees depended on for their professional development, were not necessarily neuro inclusive, there were ways that I was judging people’s learning based on things that really didn’t have to do with what they were learning or that I was training things that only a portion of my learners would be able to utilize, because of all this new knowledge that I got. And unfortunately, what I went to find a resource for how to first you know, design neuro inclusive manager training, there wasn’t anything and then like, Well, how do you be a neuro inclusive manager, and there, there wasn’t anything. So it it involves both things, learning and development and being a neuro inclusive manager. And that’ll be out in February, the online component is actually available. If companies are interested in having other managers go through neuro inclusive communication training, that is something I have available right now, or that they can purchase as an interactive online course. So lots of exciting things.
Neurodiversity and brain differences
Jolene Mei 6:04 Well, there’s a resource right there to start us off with right. On that note, I’m really excited to talk about neuro inclusion, and neurodiversity, because this is something that I’m also passionate about working in mental health for seven years. So just let’s go ahead and dive in. Overall, I wanted to first ask you, you know, to set the tone for today’s conversation, what your personal goal is that you have for our listeners today for this conversation, I
Jessica Michaels 6:27 would love for people to be mindful of their preconceived notions, when speaking to someone, you know, we often will even you know, getting off a phone call saying, Oh, that person was a jerk. Or, oh, that person wasn’t really very interested in what I was saying, because they were looking, you know, off to the side the whole time. Those are things that are very common judgments. But that in at least with 30% of the population, could be dead wrong. And we do them all the time. So that would be what I would ask is that people be mindful every time you make one of those judgments. And see, can you dig in more? Can you find out more before you make that assumption?
Jolene Mei 7:12 I love that great to keep that awareness up front. And let’s continue to reflect on the judgments that we might have in our interaction. Right. So that’s great. So let’s go ahead and dive in. For you and your perspective. What does neurodiverse mean? So neuro is brain, obviously and diverse is different. So to me, neuro diverse is just this idea that we all have different brains, so that when we talk about neuro diversity, we’re not really talking about a small segments of people, neuro diversity, that’s everybody. Because we all have brains that work differently. Now, within that overall umbrella, there may be different groupings within that. But if we are a neuro diverse gathering, then it just means that we have people whose brains work differently. And that’s a wonderful thing. Exactly. And I love that we’re starting with this, that we’re all diverse, right? But I want to say that we’re looking at it with a specific lens, right, and today’s conversation. Another thing I wanted to ask as a sub bullet point to this, because I also wanted to think about assumptions is I feel like oftentimes, when we think somebody is neurodiverse, we just think like diagnosis or not, right, which is very, like black and white thinking. Whereas we need to think a little bit more on a spectrum overall, you know, so with that, how would you describe to your best ability, like the range of neurodiversity feel free to use like examples as well, if
Jessica Michaels 8:37 that assists. So then we’ve got this big wide umbrella that we call neuro diversity. That’s everybody. Everybody in the population falls in that. But let’s think of computers for a second. So let’s say that all those brains were now we’re now computers. Who knows that may happen someday, but for right now, we’re just pretending that all these brains everybody’s a computer. And if you think of computers, they can put out the same kind of material, right? No matter what kind of computer you have, you can go on the internet, you can edit a video, you can record a podcast, you know, all of these things are that happened that are the same, and how the computers look is kind of the same right? Laptops look like laptops, desktops, a click desktops, but inside, they have operating systems that make them go that are the engine for how all of that stuff gets done. And those can be different. Let’s say you got about 80% of the computers in the world or our PCs will say those are like your neurotypical people or the neuro majority, those are the people whose brains work pretty much the same way. Then you have your Mac’s right and your Mac is about 20% of the population. And those people are your neuro divergent people or we might say neuro specific, we might say neuro spicy, all sorts of great fun ways. But essentially those are your your neuroma. already of people whose brains work differently than the majority, meaning they can do that same output the going online and editing a video and, and those things, but the way that they get there to produce that work is going to look different. And so we’ve got two operating systems, right? That’s neurodivergent and neurotypical. Well, if you take that neuro divergent group, and you break it down a little bit further, then you might have people who are accessing things on iPhones, you may have people who are accessing that on the iPad, you may have people who are still using one of those old like desktop like neon ones that were so cool. I wanted one of those so badly. So there are all sorts, even within that little smaller grouping. There’s all sorts of different ways that that those computers are working right that those brains are working. That’s very similar to the types of things that make up that neuro divergent population. That could be things like ADHD, or autism, or dyslexia, or dyspraxia, or even things like bipolar or Tourette’s, because neurodiversity, that’s not a medical term. So when you look at what’s involved in this neuro divergent group, that’s really a social thing, a social structure. And it just refers to these differences in the way people’s brains work. And one of the things that’s challenging then is because obviously, the difference between somebody with ADHD and the person with Tourette’s, you think of, well, that’s a fairly different experience. And then even within those, you have people that are affected, either more or less, by those factors, you have some people who have a couple of different we call comorbid conditions where they happen simultaneously, then you have things like autism, or autism itself, is on a spectrum. So one of the issues I think, with helping people understand neurodiversity and neurodivergent people is, you can’t look at one neurodivergent person and say, that’s what they’re all like, because every neuro divergent experience is different. And it has to do with how your brain is made up, it has to do with what your upbringing was, it has to do with what your interests are, and your health needs. And you know, there are physical and other mental disabilities that can interact. So it can be really tough, because people want to say, oh, it’s one thing. But really, there is such a range of experience. And I must admit, you know, I am I predominantly work with individuals who are able to work in a corporate environment. And when you look at the scope of neuro inclusion, that’s not the most neurodivergent people even, you know, so there are people who maybe are not able to live independently or work independently, or who need extensive physical support, but are able to, you know, mentally are able to operate just as well, as somebody maybe who doesn’t need that physical support. There’s just this, just It runs the gamut. And, you know, it can be easy even for me to fall into this, like, oh, I speak for everybody. I do not, I speak for a very small, small group. But fortunately, there are other wonderful experts who speak for those other populations that that I do not cover for sure.
Communication challenges and sensory sensitivities in the workplace
Jolene Mei 13:33 That was a great explanation. So thank you for going into detail about that. Because I think it’s important for us, I think it’s quite common I run into where like, oh, that person with this diagnosis is like this, because I’ve watched that on a television show. Right? And I just want to say like, okay, like every individual person, how their diagnosis, or their neurodiversity shows up for them is going to be very unique to that person. And that’s like a lot to handle, I’d say mentally for people who might not know what that looks like, right. But again, I’m excited. I’m getting a little ahead of myself, but I’m excited to hear your approach because the way we talked about this before or today’s conversation, you made it seem very tangible. So we will get there listeners we well, but we are reviewing concepts right now, just to set us off on the right foot. Okay, two part question here is first considering the answer you just gave me feel free, I think that it would be a good time for you to share, like from your own experience, what is or was an everyday obstacle that you experienced when going to work? I know you mentioned a little bit about your experiences earlier on in this conversation. So feel free to explain that. And then I thought that I don’t know if it would relate to your response. Feel free if it does, or if not, you can answer it after. But I think that talking about sensory sensitivities would be interesting as well to start us off as one, how sensory sensitivities are going to show up for people really range as well. So just to park for you.
Jessica Michaels 14:54 Absolutely. So I have struggled my whole Life with communication. And I know that would probably even my mother would question that a little bit because she’d say, oh, but you speak well, your verbal, you know, you’ve been reading since you were four, you know, I always was able to communicate. But what became evident, especially as I got older was the amount of times that what I was expressing was not what people were receiving, or that people would say to me, Well, you feel angry, and say, No, I don’t feel angry. That’s a you’re defensive? No, I don’t, don’t feel defensive. And what I have learned, and what I know that that experience is that many neurodivergent individuals have what I call a different communication culture, compared to kind of what people would expect to see in the neuro majority. What does that mean? Well, it means that I might use the same facial expressions, because you know, we all faces, you know, they do a limited number of things. So facial expressions are going to be the same range, tone of voice, volume of voice, physicality, word choice, all of those things, we kind of have this idea of, oh, if somebody’s mouth turns like this, it’s a smile means they’re happy. And if their voice is loud, and really fast, then they’re probably excited. Or if somebody’s faces flat, and they’re not showing that happiness, and maybe they’re looking down and their their words are very clipped, then they must be upset. But in reality, for a lot of us, even though we have those same words, the same facial expressions, those same physical characteristics, they mean different things than what you would expect. I was in a meeting with some colleagues. And this is a group of colleagues that I meet with weekly. We don’t always work closely, but we’re familiar. And I was just asking for, you know, we had a big project. And I was asking for a one sentence summary that I just needed this one thing to button it up. And I was asking the group for this one thing, and I did not know. But what other people in that meeting heard was, I need something that is critical that is missing from this project. And I am worried that if I’m not going to get it, I’m not going to be able to get the project done. And I think that this project has been missing this piece, and the whole thing is a disaster. And I had somebody reach out to me after the meeting and say, so wait, you’re saying that this project wasn’t ever vetted by a senior leader before now? And I said, No, I didn’t say that. I said, I needed a one sentence statement to button it up. And that’s what I needed. Why would you think that I was saying that the project wasn’t gonna get done or that we hadn’t talked to senior leaders. And she said, No, I just, you know, from from your facial expression and the tone of your voice, you just seemed really worried. You know, I’m not worried at all. Like, I need one thing. And so even amongst people that I work with, frequently, they didn’t take my words, words, were only 10% of what they took, they took my tone, they took my facial expression, and all of these things and told themselves a story. And that story was inaccurate. And this happened to me two weeks ago. So these are things that have happened to me my whole life. I noticed them more now, but they are hugely difficult for me still and hugely difficult for so many neurodivergent people across the board, and sensory sensitivity. I think sometimes when people think sensory sensitivity, they think lights and sound and smells. And sure, all of that is true. You know, you may have people who, in these Open Office plans, they really want to work by the windows because the aisle is too noisy, or they need a dark place to go to be able to work because what people don’t realize about neurodivergent brains is they are actually taking in up to 10 times more information at any time than a what we would consider a more neurotypical brain. And so those sensory issues when people are like, Oh, you’ll get used to it, you’ll get used to the noise, you’ll get used to the light, you won’t because to that person, it’s 10 times brighter, it’s 10 times louder, and that is really painful and can be distracting. But sensory issues also have to do with emotions as well. So that could be how you feel emotions. If you feel certain emotions. And if you think about being say in a feedback meeting with a manager and your manager gives you some feedback. If you’re a person with some sensory sensitivity issue Use then that feedback that you’re getting to your brain, it’s the same as getting fired. It isn’t in the real world, we know that but your brain doesn’t know your brain is freaking out. And so that causes this physiological response. And you may hear oh, you need to learn to take feedback better? Well, no to your brain, the worst thing in the world has just happened. And you might be able to come back around in a day or so and you know, have that be processed and have a good conversation. But in the heat of that moment, your brain is going to do what your brain is going to do. And it’s going to tell your body to do what it’s going to do. And there’s nothing you can do about that. And it isn’t a personal weakness, it isn’t a failure, it isn’t a flaw. It just is. And those are the types of things that as a corporate world of business world, we really, really need to get on board with, for sure. Oh, yeah. I
Embracing diverse brains in the corporate world
Jolene Mei 20:50 love that you mentioned as a corporate world, the business world, we need to get on that before. There is a follow up question to that. So hold on to that. But I just want to acknowledge, firstly, I really appreciated that in your story that you mentioned somebody, like individually reaching out to you, because I did want to say that that’s a great situation like, hey, like, just wanted to make sure you said this, and I took it this way. But I want to connect with you like individually. So many times, I feel like that has really assisted in the communication becoming more accurate. And then secondly, you were talking about like sensory differences. And for my mind, something popped up, which is like ADHD, and I think it was interesting that like, you know, originally people thought when people have ADHD, they don’t pay attention. But it’s like the opposite. It’s just that they pay attention to too many things. Right, that it’s distracting. So just wanted to note that in there my little two cents there. Absolutely.
Jessica Michaels 21:35 Yeah, sometimes it’s just I tend to when I’m really listening, or really thinking hard, I tend not to make eye contact, because I just can’t, that’s just too much going into my brain for me to really listen. So I have to close my eyes and kind of, you know, look off to the side. And so the less I look like I’m paying attention, typically, the more I am paying attention, because I just have to make that other energy go someplace. So I can focus because my attention is 10 different places. Now, in my job, when I’m facilitating a training, it’s great. Because I can pay attention to what I’m saying, I can look at a chat, I can be moving slides, I can be looking at a Slack channel, I can see, you know, if my battery’s about to go dead on my computer, I can handle so many different things all at once. Because I do have that heightened level of attention. But you know, certainly good, good and bad that comes with that for sure.
Jolene Mei 22:30 Oh, yeah, totally. But I appreciated what you shared there. Because it kind of goes back to what we talked about in your intro where it’s like utilizing your height. Was it high stakes talents, I believe is what it was high spike talents, yes, hike spiked talents, there we go. Yeah, you know, and I feel like that was a great example of that, and how that applies to you, you know, but going back to what you said about part of the business world. So this next concept, which I’m super interested to hear from you, is you have talked about the corporate neuro divide, right, and we’ve basically touched on it in these past responses, but just to make sure we’re not giving it full circle and giving it the space. Tell us more about that and what it means and entails in your perspective.
Jessica Michaels 23:09 Absolutely. So this is a term that I created, because I’ve really wanted to show the difference between kind of this old mentality, right, that there is a certain way a professional person looks like sounds like an axe, like, I mean, right now, if I were to say, picture, the most professional person you can think of, then most of the time, that person, probably a man, unfortunately, but more than likely, statistically, probably in a suit. Probably white, probably a little bit older, probably very, you know, speaks in a certain way maybe has some some gravitas. And we just have this idea of what professional looks like. And that is what I call the the neuro divide, right? This idea that there are better brains for business than others, and that there are certain characteristics that are more indicative of business acumen Zahn others, and what is the thing that I think companies that are embracing the future are learning and understanding is, you can be a person who has some of the best ideas in business and not wear a suit, maybe aren’t real great at getting to work at eight o’clock, or maybe do your best work at three in the morning. Or maybe you express yourself in a different way. Maybe you are somebody who uses a non standard form of English. Maybe you are somebody who’s always losing their work badge and somebody who can’t keep track of their coffee cup like there are so many different ways to contribute to a business that are not in that little box of professional, but we’ve equated different with bad. We’ve, you know, taken generations of workers and said out, we’re gonna figure out what your strengths or weaknesses are and you got to shore up your weaknesses, instead of saying, okay, these are your weaknesses, so we’re not going to have you work on that stuff, how about we lead as hard as we can into your strengths. And we are going to build something fantastic. Because what is easier to deal with, of course, is a person who sort of their strengths or weaknesses are kind of in this little, this smaller range. And you know, they can, they’re more predictable, right? We know how to deal with that person. We tell people, well, you need to kind of shade the edges of your personality, so you can fit into this mold, as opposed to the business molding itself around these amazing brains and amazing ideas. That’s to me that the neuro divide the corporate neuro divide, is the difference between how do you deal with these brains? And do you have this idea that there’s one brain that’s better than others? And if you do, then, boy, you’re really looking towards the past? And that’s where we’re going to leave you?
Neurodiversity, interviewing, and professionalism
Jolene Mei 26:07 Well, that was a really great response. Like there was so much that I was thinking about just listening to you like, firstly, personally, like outside of this conversation, like professionalism is something that I’m currently reflecting on. Right. And I think that, especially in the past few years, and recently and currently is, you know, with more remote jobs, right, there’s less of that front facing, and I think for me, I’m like, Okay, I’m, like working completely remote currently, right. And when I think of my professionalism, it has to do with the interaction, right? How are we interacting, that makes what we do professional, and there’s less of that strain, or I don’t know the right word, but basically, the emphasis on the visual presentation of the individual, right, more of the like, Okay, how many checkpoints are we having, like, are we delivering to specs, all of those types of things. So just, you know, something that I was mulling in my mind while I was listening to you, and was also you’re mentioning, instead of having us be expected to fade or shade the sides of our personality to fit in this box, right. And so that brought up another thought, for me of like, this interaction between individuals and organizations, I feel are is very much changing at this moment in time, you know, as we’re coming out of the pandemic, and quarantine, you know, it’s been a while now, but it’s still something I think that people are thinking about and discussing. So yeah, just something that I was thinking about listening to you. So I thought that was super interesting. And I’m curious with that in mind, what we’re going to discuss further in this conversation, considering that theme, so just really interesting. So with that, as you mentioned, you know, when you think of professional, what, what are you saying, and the communication and how individuals who are neurodiverse interact in the workplace and business, right. So with that, what is one unwritten professional expectation that you would encourage hiring managers to reflect on
Jessica Michaels 27:53 when you are interviewing someone? Are you figuring out if they are a great interviewer? Or if they are actually going to be good at the job you’re hiring them for? What does a good interviewer tell you about the coding job, or the administrative job? Or the director job? Does that it’s really like a microcosm, right? This this interview, you know, we’ve looked at things like eye contact and handshake. And did they ask the right questions at the right time? Did they not ask the wrong questions at the right time, you know, just all of these rules that we’ve created. And basically, to me, what that tells you is, well, that person knows how to follow the interview rules, doesn’t tell me anything about how they work. And really, what am I hiring for a good interviewer, or somebody who’s going to be great in the role that I have open? So I would really encourage hiring managers to think about what you’re have to have. And you’re the things where you immediately dismiss somebody. Why? Why. So they asked about pay on the first phone call. So what So what, why does that mean, they are not going to be amazing and amazing employee. So that’s just I think the whole way we recruit an interviewer, and this is coming from a former recruiter is really just counterproductive. In a lot of situations. Yes,
Jolene Mei 29:17 great, great response, a great point to reflect on. So we’ve now looked at this big, big thing called neuro diversity and areas that we should look at. So with that in mind, tell me how you view your approach to neuro inclusion.
Jessica Michaels 29:33 So I would love to have a time when when we talk about neuro diversity. We’re not talking about diagnose conditions or things like that. But we’re talking about things like engineering talent, or great speaking ability or the ability to work on their own or deep thinking or just that should say to us, we should be speaking about possibilities and not deficits. And you know, one of the we talked about Hi, spike townfield. But let me dive into that a little bit more, if you don’t mind. So basically, most people have strengths or weaknesses, again, that are fairly close in how you know, in where they are in relation to each other. So meaning, if I hire somebody for customer service, you know, maybe they’ve got a college degree, then I have a pretty good idea that they can really operate a computer, probably, you know, they can file they can sort, I can train them on product, I can train them to maybe overcome objections and go into sales. Like, I assume that because they can do one thing, they can do a lot of other things just as well. corporate model really depends on that, right? Because we don’t hire a person to do one thing or two things, we hire them to do 100 things, or we hire them to be ready to do the thing that comes up. Once they’re in the job, you know, we really want everybody to be able to be about the same when they come in the door. We say we want different personalities, we really don’t we really looking for this narrow band of things that people can do. Well, neurodivergent people tend to have high spike talents, meaning often they will have strengths that are off the charts in terms of things like, you know, you think of people who can play many musical instruments, or people who are just insanely artistic, or people who’ve got math skills that are just beyond, you know, I tend to be able to, you know, I speak in front of 1000s and 1000s of people and I can do that very well. So we have these talents that are above average, well above average, often. But then what we have correspondingly, instead of having our weaknesses that are still at that above average level where our strengths are, we have low lows, so we have weaknesses or challenges that are below or much more difficult than you would expect for somebody who could do certain things. So well. I had a client who was an astrophysicist, he would tell me what he did all day, like, okay, sure I even I got none of it. But his wife told me that about six months after they got married, she realized that if she didn’t set his clothes out for him, the next day, he would wear the same outfit until it stunk. And she would think, how is this man so brilliant, but can’t remember to change his clothes every day. And that’s really what we’re looking at, right? It’s kind of like the nutty professor, right? Somebody who is brilliant, but loses their keys in the fridge. And so that is really, really, really challenging when it comes to the way businesses are set up. So when I look at neuro inclusion, I want to create an environment, in a workplace where the best of everybody can be utilized, we can all bring our best, the best parts of us to work. And that doesn’t mean neurodivergent people that doesn’t mean autistic people. That means every employee should be supported and accommodated, so that they are able to to give the best of themselves at work. And that is something I think that people kind of mistake, right? They think, Oh, if you want neuro inclusion, then you’re saying we need to give artistic people things that everybody else doesn’t get. Or you’re saying, Oh, we shouldn’t hold people with ADHD accountable to performance standards? No, what I’m saying is that we should be flexible, where we can be flexible, and accommodate people’s preferences when we can so that their lives are easier, so that they’re happier, so that they can give the best of themselves to their job, because most of us really want to contribute to me, you know, if I need to get off work at four o’clock, because by four o’clock, I am done with my ability to talk to people, my brain is mush, and I need to take a nap. Because I have my autistic crash at four o’clock. Well, maybe there’s another co worker who needs to be done at four o’clock because he’s got to pick up his kids from daycare. And maybe there’s another woman who needs to leave at four o’clock because she coaches a soccer team. Why does it matter why we all need to be done at four o’clock. If we just would all prefer to be done at four o’clock for whatever reason. Our lives are easier if we can work that slightly altered schedule. So that means when we’re at work, we’re going to be better the stuff that we’re going to produce is going to be better. So to me neuro inclusion and the way I approach neuro inclusion is what can we do that makes it better and easier for everybody, every employee from CEO down to you know, intern on day one. What can we do to make everybody’s lives a little bit easier because that just increases the amount of energy we’re able to Give at work. Yeah,
Neurodiversity, accommodations, and performance management
Jolene Mei 35:01 that’s great. You made so many good points I, I hope that I encourage listeners to even like go back a few seconds to re listen to it, because a lot of the examples you gave are so real. And sometimes, I mean, to me, they sound charming, but some, some others. They may sound like, wait, what? Forgetting your keys in the fridge? Like, you know, but it’s true. You know, and I think that’s really important for us to recognize that this happened. And I loved what you said about possibilities, not deficits, as well. And you know, everything you mentioned is basically like talking about this perspective change, how can we be creatively flexible, so that we can make things easier and therefore perform better? Right? So I love that, and especially what you talked about that every employee should be accommodated? I think when we think of accommodation, we just think of people who have diagnoses, but I think every employee can be accommodated, right. So I think that’s just some points that I wanted to repeat. And we acknowledge that you mentioned here. And so I wanted to switch a little bit to, like misconceptions and actions that we can do. I know you, coach, right. And I’m really just curious when working with different leaders? Like what is the most common question that comes up in your trainings with like managers and leaders? I’m just curious about that, especially since we’re talking about this perspective change. So just wanted to add to that, the first
Jessica Michaels 36:12 thing they asked me is, so how do I tell who on my team is neurodivergent? And I say, you don’t? And don’t? Don’t ever try? Don’t ever try? And please don’t tell anybody I told you to do that. Because you unless they tell you you will not know. And they might not know, you know, we talk about we haven’t really gotten into you know why so many neurodivergent. People don’t know that they’re neuro divergent, because they’ve never been diagnosed, or because they don’t realize that the world in their brain is different than the world in somebody else’s brain. Like what a weird concept is that, so you’re never going to know. And but that shouldn’t stop you from being neuro inclusive. Because again, it doesn’t matter why maybe this person on your team prefers to answer you in email, like after a meeting, they need a day to think and then they’re going to respond an email, or why this person doesn’t really like to do morning meetings, or whatever it is, it doesn’t matter if that’s because of ADHD, or because they are in a bus on the way to work, or whatever it is, because it just is. It’s something that is a preference. So if we are flexible, and we really make it a point to try to as much as we can create, you know, Team norms and create flexible conditions, then, regardless of why somebody needs something, it’s there, and you never need to know why you never need to know what the behind the scenes are. So that is the first question. The second question I get is, so you are telling me that you can’t punish or performance manage neurodivergent people? Because you’re saying that, Oh, if somebody says, well, I need 10 deals this month, but I’m autistic, and I can only get five, then I should let them get five? No, that is not what I’m saying. What I am saying is that people need things like concise, clear, written directions. They need clear job descriptions, they need clear metrics. They need to know how they’re going to be judged on, you know, their success. They need these things. It’s not about managing everybody the same. It’s managing people, equitably, being flexible and accommodating. So people have what they need to be successful. And so that’s what I’m telling people not, oh, no, you can’t ever have a performance conversation with an autistic person. Far from it. Far from it. We just need to open our minds a little bit to the ways we’ve done our jobs historically.
Neurodiversity and misconceptions about neurodivergent individuals
Jolene Mei 38:51 Yeah. And I wanted to echo that. I think that goal setting is so beneficial to every person. And I think and also you mentioned something earlier, just like clear, concise communication, even like just an agenda to the meeting that is sent 24 hours in advance is so helpful to so many individuals, including people who are neurodiverse as well. So yeah, just some of the things that were going through my mind when I was listening to you as well. Okay, other follow up questions that are based on your experience? What are three common misconceptions that you’ve come across? When coaching when it comes to neuro inclusion that neurodivergent people, especially people with ADHD are lazy? Because if they had the energy to play three hours of video games, surely they had enough energy to do three hours worth of work. It’s just they should try harder, that people are rude like neurodivergent people, especially autistic people are rude or condescending or mean. And then the last thing is that there is a certain type of person who should be a manager or should be a leader. And those types do not tend to include neuro divergent individuals, they’re
Jessica Michaels 40:01 what I call a typical Leadership Profiles, people that are too much or too little, they say, oh, you can’t be a manager, because you need to fit into this, this band here to be a manager.
Jolene Mei 40:12 Yeah. And I heard that inflexible perspective in those responses that you gave. So with that, like, what’s your response? When you are fielding those types of perspectives?
Jessica Michaels 40:22 Yeah, you know, I try as much as I can. Because I understand it is a weird concept to think that you could be sitting next to somebody and having a totally different experience of the world than they are having. Like, that is a really screwy thing. So I try to relate to people in ways that make sense, you know, we talked about the laziness, right? executive function is essentially the part of your brain that allows it to do anything, whether it’s flip a light switch, or it’s write a doctoral thesis, you have to have executive function, and a lot of neurodivergent conditions affect your executive function. And so it isn’t that this person can play video games, and they’re choosing not to work. It’s that their brain says, Yeah, okay, yeah, let’s play video games. That’s awesome. But as much as that person wants to, and knows and is begging their brain, to let them do the tasks that they know needs to get done, their brain has them a lot. In a paralysis state, essentially, it’s like the part of your brain that is the do the work part is locked. And your brain won’t open it until you give it the right key, whether that’s competition, or whether that’s pressured upcoming deadline, whether that’s novelty, it isn’t a question of will. And that can be really hard for people to wrap their minds around. But people especially who have maybe had ADHD kids, or who, you know, have been around other neurodivergent, people start to start to understand that when we talk about communication and miscommunication again, it’s, you know, humans see patterns. That’s what we do. So when you’re having when you and I are having a conversation, we’re having this conversation, but in each of our minds is like the memory of every conversation we’ve ever had. So that I can say, Oh, her eyes are doing this, her mouth is doing this. And so I know, that means she’s happy. And I know that based on every conversation I’ve ever had, and that pattern recognition was really helpful when early humans were like learning to be people, right? And they came out of a cave, and they saw a bear. And they were able to go, oh, we see a bear. I remember from the previous times, I’ve seen a bear and we had five people. And then we had four people that this bear is bad news. And I should not mess with this bear. But there aren’t bears at work, generally. So that pattern recognition that all of us are using to say, Oh, I know, the way that this person is acting. That’s rude. It’s because they’re rude. It’s because they think they’re better than other people. It’s all of these things with stop. We don’t there’s no bear there. We need to be able to back off and say, Well, why do I think they’re rude? Because they use short sentences? Does short sentences equal rude? short sentences does not equal root short sentences equals fewer words. That’s it, you know? And so it’s really having to check your assumptions, and then confirming with people like, hey, we were in that meeting. And I thought maybe I was getting a little bit of shortness, maybe you were not as engaged with the conversation is that what I should have been taking away? And it could just be no this way that person talks. And so being able to be curious and confirm before you assume is huge. And then when it comes to leadership, companies studies, after studies after studies show that the more diversity you have in an organization, the better ultimate outcome you’re going to have in terms of new year be able to relate to more customers, you’re going to be able to do outreach to more parts of the world, you’re going to be able to solve problems in a unique way. So many of these things, say diversity is better. Well, who do you want? Who do you think is going to more successfully manage a diverse team, somebody who is out of this little cookie cutter box that is now trying to manage all of these diverse people, all of a sudden, that’s going to, you know, come together, you need diversity at every level, if you’re going to have diversity of thought in your organization, you have to you can’t just have diversity in your hiring metrics. You have to have diversity in your promotion metrics, too. And they can’t just be women. Or, you know, it can’t just be one, you know, maybe one group of people that you’ve decided, Oh, we’re going to focus on these people this year. No, you need all sorts of people throughout all layers of your organization for that ever to be more than just Just surface level, pandering and politics. Yeah,
Jolene Mei 45:03 definitely. And I think listening to you always thinking back to okay putting people in boxes. And there’s a lot of unlearning, I want to acknowledge that there’s like a lot of unlearning that many have to do, including myself. And I think that, you know, we’re always going to be imperfect humans, but let’s continue to talk about these things. So that we can therefore be more inclusive, provide more of a welcoming space for everybody to feel like they can belong, and then perform great, you know,
Jessica Michaels 45:28 I’ve never said ever, that this is easy, ever. Because it isn’t. It’s hard. I mess it up. I had a big misunderstanding. Two weeks ago, when I was writing my book, I put out this call for people who were either neurodivergent or people who worked in learning and development. And I had an old coworker that I hadn’t talked to in maybe 15 years, she reached out to me and she goes, Oh, I’m perfect for this, because I’m autistic. And I work in, um, she worked in sales enablement, which is like learning and development. And I just thought, Oh, my God, because when I worked with her, I thought she was the rudest, meanest person that I’d ever come across, you know, and I was just starting in training. And she was, you know, this person with all this experience. And I just thought she treated me like the dirt at the bottom of her shoe. And I had to go, Whoa, Jessica Michaels, what patterns are you seeing there? Why are you making these assumptions, so it’s hard, and you’re gonna mess it up, and you’re gonna mess it up bad, you’re gonna make huge mistakes, you’re going to have awkward conversations, it’s going to feel gross. None of this is easy. And that’s part of the reason why diversity and inclusion tends to not take in organizations is because we sort of have this idea, oh, I go to an hour long training, everything’s great. And then I come out, and everything’s gonna be fine. But the second it gets frustrating or hard, I must have done it wrong, I’m not going to do it anymore. You know, you expect to hire a diverse person. And now your metrics are going to go through the roof, your sales are through the roof, and you’re promoted to CEO. That’s not how it works. It is hard when you have people from different backgrounds, different cultures, different communication cultures coming together. It’s a struggle. But it’s worth it. It’s what’s on the other side of that, that we are aiming for, you know, Americans pride themselves man on, you know, pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. In the American dream, none of that is easy, either. So you cannot tell me that it is impossible, or it’s not worth it, to do the hard thing to make it better, because it is, but we kid ourselves if we think we can just throw this together, and it’ll be perfect for everyone all the time, not what’s going to happen,
Jolene Mei 47:42 agreed. And I want to say that is what is called Growing Pains, you know? So with that in mind, action wise, what are some like you What are three do’s and three don’ts that you have when it comes to being an inclusive manager.
Inclusive management practices for neurodiverse teams
Jessica Michaels 47:59 So the first is set some team norms, get your team together and let your team decide, you know, how do we want to communicate as a team? Are we email people? Are we slack people? What if it’s an emergency? What if it’s time sensitive? How do we communicate? When do we want to have meetings? How do we hold each other accountable? How do we give each other feedback, and these are things that your team can and should decide for themselves whenever possible, because that is they can decide for them, where flexibility exists, and where where it doesn’t. And that is really the start of how you can create an accommodating workplace is just in your little group. Think about when you’re judging somebody’s performance, make sure you’re judging their performance, not their personality. If you are going to judge somebody on something, it should be something that you can write down on a metric sheet. And you can tell people, here’s how I know that you were successful at it. You know, it can’t be, oh, you met all your goals. But you know what you didn’t really because you didn’t meet them in the way that we wanted you to? You didn’t smile enough when you did it. You know, you didn’t own the outcome enough, like those aren’t. That’s not real stuff. So you have to be able to tell people what they need to do to do the thing. And if you can’t, then chances are you’re judging their personality, or what you liked about them or how much they are like you or did they do this in the way you expected them to, and not the actual performance itself. And then always assume good intent. Most people do not come to work to be jerks to each other. And so if you are getting off the phone, and you’re like that person was a jerk, what motivation is there for them to be a jerk this person may be that you’ve never met, or this person that you’re gonna partner with on a huge project. It’s not really worth it to any of us to be rude or mean to each other. So think about chances are they did their best or do doing their best didn’t mean any harm didn’t mean anything bad. And you would probably like people to assume that about you, too. None of us want to be judged on our worst moments, whether that worst moment is caused by autism or not having coffee that day. So like, let’s give each other a break. Always assume good intent, I’d say those are your do’s. I say your don’ts. Don’t feel like you have to know who is neurodivergent. To treat everybody better. Just treat everybody better. It’s free. You don’t need me to do it. I’m happy to charge you a bunch to teach you how but really, you don’t need me, you can just do it on your own. Don’t beat yourself up for past mistakes. Yes, we have all judged people, we have all said things that we would take back, we because we’ve all learned, we should not judge people for flip flopping when they change their minds, we should applaud people for learning new things and changing their mind to be better. But don’t beat yourself up about what yesterday you did, you were working with the best information you had at the time, you’re really fine. And don’t give up. It is easy to say, oh, there’s no business case for this, there’s you know, or this is hard, I don’t want to do this anymore. It doesn’t matter, this is just the right thing to do. You should just be better to people and be more inclusive. Regardless of whether or not the person above you is telling you that’s what you need to do, or whether there’s a bonus in your check for being the most neuro inclusive manager, you should just do it. And Gen Z, let me tell you these youngsters coming into the workforce. Neuro diversity is something they are fluent in. And so if you are a manager or a leader that is holding off on making this a part of your vocabulary and a part of your workday, it’s going to be forced on you sooner rather than later. And I would rather have it happen sooner, so that you can take advantage of all of that wonderful talent and those wonderful minds coming into the workforce, instead of playing catch up, you know, really trying to learn to speak their their language, you should be ready when they get there. That was great.
Jolene Mei 52:05 I just wanted to give a little pause for that processing, there was a lot of good things there. I especially like I really appreciated what you said about like, you don’t need to know everybody’s diagnosis to treat them better. You can just treat everybody better. Again, I feel that because I think that there’s such a huge misconception based on what we have consumed, maybe via media or like, you know, we’d like to categorize as humans and look for patterns. And that means stereotypes sometimes, right. But let’s stop with that. And go back to just like the core basic of let’s just continue to treat people good. And consider providing accommodations for everybody.
Neurodiversity, accommodations, and inclusivity in the workplace
No, I was gonna say along that. So we’re talking about neurodiversity. But this applies to so many other groups as well. I can you know, think of the the stereotypes that we have the the angry black woman stereotype. The older people can’t use technology stereotype. You know, the Colorado stoner stereotype, there’s all of these things that we just assume about people that are as hurtful as the neuro divide, right, because we are unfairly limiting people based upon our beliefs, not because of what they can do, there is no reason that someone who utilizes African American Vernacular English cannot be as brilliant and have you as bit of an idea as anybody who speaks, you know, the most proper British English in the world, we create these limitations. And, you know, they don’t help anybody, they only hurt. And so we’re talking about neuro inclusion, but everything we say about neuro inclusion, we should apply to every other intersectional group or every other minority or disadvantaged population, because they compound, right. Everything I’m saying about neurodiversity? Yeah, that’s great. But I am a white woman, you know, I’m queer, but I, you know, I’m kind of sis het appearing, everything that I experienced, that doesn’t hold a candle to what somebody who is black and in my shoes has experienced, or somebody who was also maybe black and trans, and trans and older. So we just these things just compound. So this is not where we stop this is, this is a beginning, but it really needs to go to go much, much further
Jolene Mei 54:29 agreed. And I made me think about, you know, overall, we have been discussing like this kind of categorical thinking and that it’s just not working. Right. And I think, you know, it goes back to, you know, sometimes like categorical thinking it makes it easier, but it’s inaccurate. And I think that there’s a lot of pitfalls that we are currently in, in the business world that we need to change and bring, again, that creative flexibility so that we can really help so many more people and also the organization. Right. So yeah, just wanted to Share that with what I was thinking of with your response. I was talking about accommodations. I know we’re running out of time, just two more questions on accommodation. What is a common accommodation that you see being exercised today? Clear,
Jessica Michaels 55:11 written directions. And it’s funny, I think people expect me to come up with something like, earth shattering, seriously pick up a management 101 book, like go find, so you want to be a manager, you know, like our manager for Dummies, those are the same things that people need. So clear written directions, clear metrics, time to process information, you know, before response, you know, gives people time to respond to things, give people feedback, timely feedback, not every quarter gives them feedback, but give them feedback in the moment or you know, or close to when something happens. So it’s those basic manager skills, if you can apply basic managerial skills, and then basic human decency, you are neuro inclusive.
Jolene Mei 56:02 I love it. Yes. And I will say I have even provided written instructions as an accommodation. So it is very common. So just wanted to say that out there. Because I don’t think people recognize that this can be an accommodation. So
Jessica Michaels 56:15 when people say, Oh, it’s so hard, it’s so hard. No typing email. Was that hard? Like, really? You know, I mean, there are so many things that people can do. And yeah, are there hard things to do? Absolutely. But there’s so many easy things to do that can make such a huge difference. Why don’t we just check those off the list first?
Jolene Mei 56:33 Yes, yes. I love that. I also think it’s also, I would say, a best practice in a lot of situations where pay per conversation, this is what we discussed. You know, I just think that’s also just a best practice sometimes. All right, we are out of time. Our last question, if you could tell me about a time where someone or factors of a situation led to you feeling supported, and that you belong?
Jessica Michaels 56:55 Yes. So I had a co worker who put on an event, and she called me after the event. And she asked me how it went. And I said, Well, how did you got the surveys back? You know, how what people said, and she was? No, but I wanted to hear it from you. Because when I hear it from you, I know it’s the truth. And that was amazing to me, because I knew that I was blunt, that I was very direct. And I always looked at that as a bad thing. But she said no, your truth is your superpower. And so that just you know, honesty is your superpower is is something that changed my life in that sentence. You know, that phrase that she said, because it really just turned around how I saw this thing about me that is so prevalent. And it took me from a weakness in somebody that I was ashamed of just something that I realized is is very valuable.
Jolene Mei 57:47 I love it. I like how throughout our conversation today we’ve really talked about prospective changes. And in that, I saw that as well and, and how we could see something that may be a detriment in some situation. It’s actually a strength. So I love that. And you know how you talk about high spike talents as well. So just wanted to close this conversation truly appreciated so many things you said in today’s conversation, especially looking at possibilities, not deficits, and treating everybody better. Right. So thank you so much for being here today. And I welcome anybody to connect with you on LinkedIn, or however you prefer as well. But thank you so much.
Jessica Michaels 58:22 Thank you for having me.
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