Chief DEI Officer
Anjali Patel (AP) 0:01 I would probably start by saying that the right to speak, it does not mean that you have the right to silence other people. And so I think that when we’re trying to be more cognizant about when we can be exclusionary by shutting people down, shutting people down, you know, does not include you being able to, I don’t know, tear down the poster that somebody else put up. That is something where I think we can draw some sort of line. And so you can protest someone’s viewpoints, by offering up some counter speech, but silencing them might not be the right way to go. And I think if we sort of explore this intersection between, you know, freedom of expression and DEI, this all sort of revolves around the fundamental right to just voice our thoughts and opinions. That’s what freedom of expression is about. That’s what DEI is about. And like this all Foster’s diverse perspectives, we allow this free flow of ideas and opinions. It’s so important. It’s important in an educational setting. It’s important in a corporate setting. And that means we will often hear things that we don’t want to hear that we find distasteful that we find offensive. That’s all sort of part of this, right.
Diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace
JM (JM) 1:20 Hello, everyone. This is JM, your host for the diversity podcast, where we talk with real people doing real work in the diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging space. If you want to explore what people are doing right, what positive impacts are happening or even how positive changes can be done. You’re in the right place. We welcome you to join us. Today we have Anjali Bindra Patel with us. Anjali is a lawyer and the Chief Diversity Equity and Inclusion officer at Georgetown Law. She is a mom military wife, Cleveland native TEDx speaker, and author of humanity at work, diversity, inclusion and wellbeing in an increasingly distributed workforce. Anjali is passionate about nurturing an environment where a myriad of viewpoints are embraced, and thus where we find true innovation and growth. She has over two decades of experience and di strategy relating to employment law, inclusion, leadership strategies and more. Anjali has been described as gracious and tremendously gifted. Also, interestingly, Audrey and her sister were invited to be part of family week on Wheel of Fortune, but then the pandemic hit. Disclaimer. Please note, all statements made by Angela during the podcast are solely her own and do not express the views or opinions of her employer. Without further ado, welcome agilely thank you for being here.
AP 2:42 Thanks for having me. And yes, we love fortune never reached back out to us. But my sister and I are still available.
JM 2:49 I love that. Yes, shout out just so nudge NYSED that people know. Yeah. So before we get started, let’s start with you. So tell us about yourself your background. And you know, what’s been at the top of your mind for you as well to end with that on the question? Sure.
AP 3:02 So like I said, we’re like you said, I am in the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion space. And people sometimes ask me, like, you know, was that your plan. And, you know, that was never my part of my roadmap as a kid. That’s not something that I was overtly thinking about. But maybe accidentally I was, I went to law school practice law. And now I’m a recovering lawyer, which is, you know, not really practicing anymore. Still licensed, but not practicing. But one of the things that really kind of came to my mind when I was practicing was, I saw a lot of situations that it was almost like an acute situation where things had already unraveled, things had gone really poorly in some contexts. And I started wondering, you know, again, started getting curious about, is there a way to sort of intervene early, are there early intervention tactics? And this isn’t the best analogy, but almost like preventative health care, right? So is there an equivalent in our legal profession? And so I started getting curious about what is it that’s breaking cultures down, that is leading to sometimes these hostile work environments that then leads to a lawsuit. And so I fell into this work somewhat accidentally, as some personal background, my husband was in the military. So we moved around quite a bit. And I started seeing a lot of military family members who really were left out of the workforce. So I started blogging about it and talking about it and saying, you know, when companies are saying, we don’t have the pipeline, you know, my response was, have you been to a military community lately? Have you seen all the talent that’s there? So I sort of landed here by a lot of twists and turns in my life and really love the work that I do. Oh, and it’s always changing. And so I think, you know, you would ask me what’s kind of on that front of your mind these days? And one of the things I think about a lot is, where does freedom of expression fit into this DEI puzzle? That’s something I think about a lot.
Freedom of expression and inclusion in the workplace
JM 5:14 Yes. And I can’t wait to talk about that topic, actually. Because I’ve actually been thinking about it. But it’s also been in the back of my mind, freedom of expression and where that fits in with inclusion being equitable, and then the whole dynamic of, you know, maybe positional dynamics, or even situational dynamics. So yeah, super interested to dive into that. But I did want to say that I appreciate you that that you were saying that you’re a recovering lawyer, and that you mentioned, you know, researching what’s leading to these hostile work environments, because I think sometimes we get so caught up in the concepts of what is diversity? What is inclusion, what is equity, belonging, accessibility, but I think sometimes it’s easy to get kind of stuck in the weeds and forget the bigger picture of what leads to that hostile work environment. And I think that’s really great to start us off with. And I think I was connecting our conversation today about freedom of expression with that. So yeah, my two cents with that, but okay, so starting with di N, freedom of expression, let’s first define how you see freedom of expression. So feel free to take it away. Sure. And
AP 6:22 let me just preface this with the fact that I am not a constitutional law scholar. So it’s a sort of just mindset come freedom of expression. But to me, you know, I really see freedom of expression as like a heartbeat, right? That it allows all of us to speak our minds and share our thoughts and just express our ideas without fear of censorship, or, you know, getting in trouble for it. And to me, in this DEI context, it’s about the freedom to just be yourself to share your beliefs and just don’t, you know, engage in dialogue that challenges sometimes what the status quo is. And I think, you know, this is so important, because having, you know, clear freedom of expression policies that lets us articulate, these are thoughts, here’s our beliefs. And we know that we can do that without fear of censorship, or repression. And so I sort of balanced that right with the, you know, I’m in an academic setting now. And I balance that with the need to sort of acknowledge that we also have a legal and moral obligation to present prevent harassment, and discrimination. And so, yes, freedom of expression is so super important. But sometimes people think that means you can say anything, or do anything. And that’s not what we’re talking about here. Right? So there are always forms of speech, targeted harassment, or some speech that’s really creating a hostile environment that is off the table. So for me, one of the most challenging parts of my work is sort of walking that line between freedom of expression and DEI, where is that balance? And that’s a lot of where I spend a lot of time working and thinking,
JM 8:01 yeah, that was a great start to this, because I was going to say that I think this conversation is going to be a lot about talking about this gray area, or this line, for lack of a better term, to be honest, like, where is this zone? I would say, right, between like freedom of expression, when it’s not right, where it where it becomes harassment, where is also it being exclusionary from the person who is expressing or from the place that is, you know, saying, restricting that expression, whatever it might be, depending on the circumstances. So and I did want to, you know, say to the listeners that today, we are just operating within the realms of two perspectives here. So, you know, use your best judgment on how much you want to take into today from today’s conversation. And let’s remember not to overgeneralize you know, every situation is different. So I did want to say to that, but I know that we were talking about this, Angela, that today’s conversation, I think it’s great to discuss this as the beginning of a conversation, I do think that this does need to be talked about more in different spaces. So just wanted to preface with that. And so to your point, I wanted to start us off with this question, which is, you know, D AI and freedom of expression, from your point of view, where do you see that that relationship is complementary? And where do you see that that relationship may clash?
AP 9:21 So when we were younger, so I have a family of five growing up, I have a older brother, younger sister and my parents and we went to the Poconos and we went rafting, and I’ll tie this all back in so whenever someone asked his question about like, where they’re complementary, and where do you see them clashing? I always picture like, bodies of water, like maybe two rivers, right? So I feel like DEI and freedom of expression. Sometimes they’re like two rivers kind of flowing peacefully side by side. But other times, it’s like they start colliding with each other. And I think that in the complementary side of things, they come together, you During all these times when we have these open and honest conversations about our differences when we create those spaces, right, and I think that like when we are able to do that, that blend creates this rich blend of perspectives, which to me is a lot of what DEI is all about. But then there’s also like that clash side. And that clash happens when people believe that this speech might be harassment, or discrimination, or you know, even an incitement to violence. And that dilemma then forces us to wrestle with these boundaries of free speech and questioning, you know, when if ever, that harm that it’s causing to individuals or communities then outweighs those principles of freedom of expression. And so before I go any like deeper, I also kind of wanted to zone in a little bit on harassment. And again, these are my takes, and you know, by no means, is this the definition, but this is my take on, you know, harassment. And to me, harassment encompasses a whole range of behaviors and a lot of times and involves persistent or unwanted conduct that creates a hostile environment or in flow, inflicts like serious emotional distress on people. But where I sometimes spend a lot of time thinking is okay, that’s a definition of harassment. How do we make sure that that also adheres to First Amendment protections? And so I think that some of the things that we struggle with sometimes is, again, this clashing this line, like that line between harassment and free speech, where is it? So anyways, all that to say that, I think it’s really important to balance the protection of free speech with the prevention of harm and these cases that involve possible harassment, but we have to really tread lightly, and there’s no right answer, or one way to do this, right. Like you said earlier, it’s so situations specific.
Free speech, harassment, and trauma management in a workplace setting
JM 11:57 you brought up a really great points, and I’m gonna throw this at you, I really appreciated you like putting into the space of like, harassment and freedom of expression. Where is that? Where do those meet? Where did they clash? And I wanted to ask, because, for me how I took it was like, okay, there are situations where I feel offended, but not harassed, you know, and I think that’s this area for me that I find difficulty in knowing how to respond of like, okay, I feel offended. How do I respond? And what is my goal? And what is my energy? I guess, I don’t even know, I’m not going to make sense if I continue. So I’m just going to ask the question, which is like, for you like, what would be maybe some internal questions that you would point to, or maybe that you even do when you come across a situation that can help you determine, Okay, is this just like a statement that’s offensive? Or is this a statement? That’s harassment?
AP 12:52 I think we’ve all heard so many instances of when we have heard stuff that’s grossly, grossly offensive. And how you deal with that? Well, let me just going to start by saying, you know, lately, being in the DEI space has been challenging, right. And I think that there are times where just the mere mention of the letters DEI is enough to trigger a response, you know, and so some of the things I sort of tried to remember, I’m probably going to mention this person a couple times, just because I think he’s a really good writer. There’s this guy named David French, I don’t know the guy. So I know, it sounds like I’m plugging him, which I am, I guess, but he works for the New York Times. And he had put out an article a few days ago, that’s just in the front of my mind right now. And so in this article, he sort of lays things out. And he’s like, you know, speech might be offensive, but there is a right, the right to speak freedom of expression, all of that it includes that right to offensive speech, right. And so that’s a lesson that I have to sort of internalize that colleges have to keep learning time and time again, it’s just the fact that someone can find speech, infuriating, insulting, or maybe even hateful. But that doesn’t mean that we get to silence that voice. And so I think we need to remember that and balance that with the fact that the right to speak doesn’t mean that you have a right to harass. And so when I feel that something’s now going into the respite category, then I would probably look to find solutions within my institution. What are the policies that protect me from that? Yeah,
JM 14:35 and I think hence why I think it’s so important, looking at this from an organizational standpoint of like, how is harassment defined in the employee handbook as well, you know, because I think I can see where employees might go to that and check them like, okay, is this harassment? You know, so that was being brought up for me. And then another thing that was being brought up for me is like, when you said trigger a response, I think there are so many people that have expired. against trauma from you know, something, they witnessed something they’ve experienced. And I think that that’s also part of the equation because we are all human. And sometimes I find myself having a conversation with someone who has a different view from me. And they may use rhetoric or language from like maybe like political agenda type of rhetoric they’ve consumed and not recognize this other side. Whereas I might be taking in a completely different rhetoric, right? And then that language is now triggering something that I experienced in the past. And then now that that experiencing is being brought up, presently, right, and then I’m like, Okay, let me check in with myself, do I have energy to manage this, like, you know, and then also, when it must be really difficult as to your point of like, you know, being in the field is really difficult right now, because there is a lot of trauma for many marginalized communities and identities and even people who are not marginalized. Right. So, yeah, just bringing that into the conversation, because it brought that up to me of, you know, managing what has happened to you maybe in the past versus what you’re going through now, so that you can have a productive conversation, like, what have you done in those types of situations to like, you know, navigate that situation?
Empathy, inclusivity, and free speech in academic settings
AP 16:10 So I mean, I think, how are we gonna sort of voice concerns from people on both perspectives of a situation? And if that’s what we’re talking about, I would say, you know, I’ll use DEI as a specific example, right? I think voicing concerns and goals from both perspectives, requires an ability that really show some empathy with the other side of the aisle, it’s, it’s something you just spoke about as well. And so from a DEI context, like I said, those letters are enough to trigger a response on people without even having a conversation. As soon as they see the job title. It’s like that this person must believe X, Y, and Z. And so for people who might be hesitant to engage in conversation, I think it’s really important to show some empathy and just understand what their concerns are. So if you have like this sort of visceral reaction, when you’re here, DEI, I would really want to know, like, what are your concerns and how to understand those concerns. And so I think, sometimes that resistance to DEI is just rooted in fear of the unknown or perceived threats to someone’s, you know, way of life or beliefs. And so I think from the other side of things, for people who support DEI, it’s important to give space to them and understand where they’re coming from, and that a lot of this comes from their passion and commitment just to creating more inclusive spaces. And so I think empathy is really a big piece of this and just learning to listen to someone’s perspective, I’ve been guilty of this, where someone’s speaking, and I’m not really listening, I’m planning my response. And so I think there might be some level of mindfulness to this to just be in the moment and really, really listen to what someone’s saying, pause and then respond.
JM 17:52 Love that. And, you know, I think listening to you reminded me of just the benefit and use of empathy and emotional intelligence, especially for those in leadership positions, who may be feeling those types of situations more right than direct reports. So and then on that note, I wanted to ask like, any points, I know you we’ve been, like, basically talking about this the whole time. But just to be even more specific. Where do you think that from a leader standpoint, or just like from a standpoint of somebody who’s maybe facilitating conversations, where do you think that we can be more cognizant about when we may be being exclusionary by shutting people down? Like, when is it justified? And you know, where can we welcome the troublemakers as well?
AP 18:36 There’s a lot of directions, I can take this question. Again, it’s gonna sound like I’m obsessed with David French. And maybe I am obsessed with his writing. But again, go kind of pointing back to some of the articles he’s we’re in here, I would probably start by saying that the right to speak, it does not mean that you have the right to silence other people. And so I think that when we’re trying to be more cognizant about when we can be exclusionary by shutting people down, shutting people down, you know, does not include you being able to, I don’t know, tear down the poster that somebody else put up. That is something where I think we can draw some sort of line. And so you can protest someone’s viewpoints, by offering up some counter speech, but silencing them might not be the right way to go. And I think if we sort of explore this intersection between, you know, freedom of expression and DEI, this all sort of revolves around the fundamental right to just voice our thoughts and opinions. That’s what freedom of expression is about. That’s what DEI is about. And like this all Foster’s diverse perspectives if we allow this free flow of ideas and opinions, it’s so important. It’s important in an educational setting. It’s important in a corporate setting, and that means we will often hear things that we don’t want to hear that we find distasteful. pool that we find offensive. That’s all sort of part of this right? And so I think in the realm of academia, since that’s where my time is spent these days, there’s this question that kind of continuously sort of bubbles up. And that question that continuously bubbles up is when does our heat heated rhetoric? When does that sort of devolve into prohibited speech? And that’s a question I wish I had, like, here’s the exact answer every time that everyone can use. I don’t know that I have that answer. But it’s something that I worry about something that keeps me up at night, like, where is that line? And, you know, can we get more guidance on where that line is, you know, within the classroom, sometimes you see students are reluctant to express some of their viewpoints, maybe it’s a political viewpoint that’s not popular, or it could be any kind of viewpoint that’s not popular. And that worries me, because in school, one of the things I loved most about being in school was that my thinking was challenged. And so those challenging conversations are what changed me. And when I look at my time in school, like where I was, when I started versus where I was, when I graduated, the biggest growth I got was from people challenging my thinking. So I, I do worry that, you know, shutting people down, that does worry me, because some of my biggest growth has come from people challenging my thinking. And, you know, my own father, who I’m very, very, very close to, he challenges my thinking all the time. And I have to tell you, I’ve had so much growth, and my mind has been opened in so many different directions because of that challenge. And I would hate to see that fall to the wayside.
Diversity and inclusion goals and concerns
JM 21:44 Yeah, great points, I can very much relate to that, where, you know, I feel challenged, a little offended, but also very grateful to have close people in my life who have very different opinions from me. And I definitely agree that I feel like I grow so much from those types of conversations and relationships, it just really depends on like, the energy I have that day, just also I love that you said, you know, remembering that we should try to actually like hear them out, like listen to their perspective. And, and to the point, I know, you’re mentioning language and like heated rhetoric. So I thought that was quite interesting. And that is a big topic to think about. But I wanted to actually take a step back from that and see if we can get a little bit more close to ground level, you know, going to the context of having conversations with those who support di and those who are opposed to it. I think that kind of situation may be happening for many individuals, whether they are D AI facilitators, leaders, you know, allies, co conspirators, anybody, you know, and I think, especially with today’s political climate, I think that this is an interesting context to bring up. But to get to the question, let’s go back, I wanted to take it back to goals and concerns, you know, like the intention instead of the language. So, from your perspective, how would you describe the concerns and goals from both perspectives of those who support DEI and those who oppose it? Well,
AP 23:03 I’m going to generalize on the biggest ways I can’t really speak on behalf of other people, but I can what I can share is the concerns that sometimes I hear from people who are opposed and I’m putting a post on air quotes here opposed to DEI is that DEI is not at all what it purports to be that it actually shuts down diverse perspectives. It’s exclusionary, not inclusionary. It’s inequity, not equity. And when I have a deeper conversation, and I’ll share like this story, one of the people who I really respect, a colleague of mine was someone who was very skeptical. And I think that having those conversations and sitting down and saying, Okay, what is it? When we started talking, we actually have many common values. It’s how sometimes these things are perceived. And with DEI, the definitions are all over the map, depending on who you ask. And I think that the commonality that we found is, we just want people to be treated well. That’s where we landed. And we realized we had a lot more in common that differences that we had. And so I think that the goals and concerns are sort of the same from both ends. The goals are we want people to be able to thrive, and we want them to be able to express themselves. And so to me, it’s becoming, the more conversations I have, the more I see, the goals are the same. It’s the tactic that people will have differences on. I think there’s plenty of room for improvement on
JM 24:39 oh my gosh, yeah, I so related to that response, because I was going to say as well like listening to you, I could see myself actually having a conversation like I don’t know a couple months ago with someone who I really care about that does not support di but it was kind of interesting once we peel back the layers, like you know, we both discovered that we wanted just Respect and belonging for more different types of people. But just, I think, like you said, the tactics, and it was kind of funny, because we were meaning to say the same thing, but using completely opposite language is what I found. And so, you know, it came to a realization where the initial steps, I feel like are the most draining for me until we get to that core, right of like, oh, this is actually what we’re meaning, you know, but like, peeling away, all of that is draining. So like, I think, you know, it makes it even harder or like draining to field, those types of opinions that we perceive as hateful or offensive, right, during those kinds of conversations where disagreements can come up. So like, for you like what has helped you, I guess, get through that initial hump. I think
AP 25:47 it really depends on the day, right. And you had pointed to this a couple times, and I’ve been there myself, sometimes I don’t have the emotional currency, I guess, to engage. There’s just some days where I feel I’m tapped out like today might not be the best day where I’m going to show my best self. So I tend to listen to that voice. As I get older, I am a little more self aware, on that front, at least to know, do I have it in me to be mindful to actually listen to what the other person is saying? And sometimes the answer’s no, right? Sometimes, and I tie this in with well being if I haven’t slept, and I’m over tired, and you know, I’m hungry, and all those things that to me signals. Maybe that’s not the best time to have this type of conversation. And I usually just let people know, you know, like, it’s just, I’m not feeling it today. Can we revisit this, and it’s usually gone pretty well, when I when I post it that way, I kind of wanted to go back to our last talking point, because something just came up in my mind. And this is not my story. But just a story that I love that a student shared with me, that sort of drives home, how strong some of our commonalities are, right. And she was saying that she was in the car with her mother and her mother is more or less leaning, and she’s more right leaning. And her mom said to her, you know, sometimes I’m not even sure how you’re my daughter, we’re so different. Our viewpoints are so so different. And she said to her mom, she’s like, you know, I don’t know, is that true? I care deeply about our community, you care deeply about our community, I care deeply about doing what’s right. And you care deeply about doing what’s right. It’s just our pathway of getting there looks different. But guess what mom, like we have the exact same values. That was such a such a poignant, like example of a lot of what we’re doing here. And I see that a lot. And so when I see somebody who, let’s just say maybe has a reputation, or this person seems like they’re really opposed to you know, DEI, I love talking to them. Because more often than not, that’s not the case at all. They’re all about inclusion. It’s about how we get there. That’s that’s where the differences are. Yeah,
JM 28:04 great points. I feel like when I listened to that, I kind of felt like this feeling of like, okay, let me disarm myself to show that we’re connected. You know, that’s like, kind of the feeling I got there. So with actually, you know, the majority of listeners here, support di so with that, I think that it’s good for us to review maybe approaches to voicing disagreements or views that may be surrounding a sensitive topic. So I wanted to ask you like, can you break down three tips or approaches that you’d give others when they do want to advocate or voice their opinion about something, maybe to somebody who disagrees?
AP 28:42 So we’ve kind of talked about active listening, and I know that that sounds so basic, but it’s often so overlooked, to just pause and actively, truly listen to what the other person is actually saying without interrupting them, and then seek to understand that perspective. So that’s one thing. And then I think asking questions is, is great, you know, asking clarifying questions to delve deeper into their viewpoints, can help uncover some of these reasons for their beliefs. And I think that’s where we get caught up a lot. And then I would say, you know, when things get heated, it’s important to stay calm and keep your emotions in check. And then let’s see what else I think focusing on facts. Focusing on facts is super important, I think, rely on on the facts and disagree with the stance, or the issue or the perspective. Let’s not get into personal attacks on other people, you can have a heated disagreement, and I think we can all learn a lot from heated disagreements, and I have no issue with heated disagreements. But where I think we need to make sure we’re always cognizant is that we don’t want to turn our disagreement into an attack on a person or generalizations people like you always do this. such as kind of staying in the moment and focusing on what’s actually going on, I think is a good way to go. Yeah,
Freedom of expression and biases in communication
JM 30:04 thank you for giving those specific examples, actually, you know, it brought up just that little tweak in language of like, I disagree with you versus I disagree with that perspective, you know, or that change, you know, because I feel like the previous one can make someone feel attacked, and then put their hour back on. And then I feel like you’re further away from finding that core connection, right? Because I do think that there is a value in going back to level one, you know, like, who are we actually on a human level without all these tactics on top? So yeah, a lot of the context that we’ve been talking through has been more of like the, from a standpoint of a conversation where people are freely voicing their perspectives. But I also wanted to bring the fear of being canceled in this, especially for the freedom of expression that we’ve been talking about, right? Because I think there are situations and I’m really, you know, there’s probably people out there, I don’t even know that they disagree with me, because they’re afraid of being judged. Right. So like, what are your thoughts on the fear of being canceled? Like, you know, was there a time that you came across a situation where you found that someone withheld an opinion because of that fear?
AP 31:08 Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And I think there’s, you know, a fear of being cancelled is such a big point that really needs to warrants deeper discussion. And so I think like, I’ll, you know, I have a couple different things that I can point to, but I think in a classroom setting, I’ve seen professors who might choose to avoid lecturing on something that’s super controversial, because they might be worried about student backlash, or somehow that something that they said will be misinterpreted, and then put online. And so again, I’m aging myself here a little bit. But I think that having social media is so fantastic. But it also is a double edged sword, because people want to be reacting in real time really quickly. And these algorithms like reward that behavior. So if somebody posts something in your number 997, to comment on something, you’re not gonna get that visibility. But if your first then that might get, you know, reposted reshard, retweeted. And so sometimes I think that there is this immediate reaction, so someone will want to get attention, and they might take something out of context. And then the person on the receiving end, we’ll be dealing with this whole cancel culture. And on a personal level, I had mentioned that our were military family and being near a military base, I always thought it was so interesting. I think this happens in all neighborhoods, but you’ll see people who are a little bit hesitant to put up those signs in their yard. You know, for us, we have voting today. And you will see people kind of like, I don’t know, should I put that? Should I put that sign in my yard? I’m worried that might create some sort of charged atmosphere in my neighborhood. And I’m worried that people who I’ve been friends with might look at me a different way might not want to talk to me in the same way. And I think that fear emanates, like, it’s not just in the workplace. It’s not just in school, it’s everywhere. And I think that just allowing some space to understand that you can have a difference of opinion and still have some common values. I mean, we need to go back to that.
JM 33:21 Yeah. Agreed. It’s so interesting, when I tend to have like conversations with random situational people that, that I find that with, like, Oh, it’s fine. Like, it’s okay, if we have differing opinions, and then like, I never meet them again. And that’s completely fine with me. But it’s just so it’s kind of funny how that happens. Versus I feel like, it doesn’t happen as often with people that I’m closer with? No, no, very random, very random comment for me. Okay. So on the flip side of the fear of being canceled, I actually wanted to ask this interesting question, which is, what biases Do you think that you bring to the concepts of diversity, equity and inclusion? Oh, wow.
AP 33:58 There’s a lot. So I am not sure which one I should focus on. But I’ll just focus on since we’re talking military, I’ll focus on that. I’m a military spouse. But my husband’s rubbed off on me over the years. And so I think that I probably have an inherent bias towards structure and discipline, right. And that actually influences my view on organizational policies. So I actually I try to acknowledge that I have these biases, and I try to balance it. So when I’m looking for people that I’m working with, I am looking for people who come to the table with flexibility and curiosity and innovation, so that they can balance me out. I mean, I could give you a laundry list of the biases but that’s just one example of some of the inherent biases that I have and, and I also have an affinity bias and it sounds all positive, right? But I like I said, I am from Cleveland. So anytime I meet someone who’s from Cleveland, they almost get an automatic pass right there like automatically like you get a green light because you’re From Cleveland, and I’m from Cleveland. And it’s such a great way to connect. But I think we also need to be aware that there can be situations where maybe I might have my blinders on, right? Because I’m like, Well, that can’t be true because we share this commonality and this person’s from Cleveland. And so am I. And so it’s important to kind of recognize that we all have biases, and just try to interrupt them in that way.
JM 35:22 Yeah, definitely. I just thought it would be interesting for us to discuss like that, two sides of like the fear of being canceled, and then the biases we bring on this side, too, because I think those are interesting questions to think about as we talk about freedom of expression and where we’re limiting it as well. Okay, my next question is more for those working in marketing and communication. So given what we’ve talked about today, are there any points that you’d like to bring to their attention to be more cognizant of, you know, how they’re communicating in their communications,
AP 35:53 I’m no marketing and communications expert. But I do think like things like inclusive imagery, that’s important. And so if you are looking up an organization, or school or a story, then you’re seeing a message when you get onto that website, and that includes what’s being shown. And so I think kind of having some diversity in imagery, having that be inclusive, is important. And I think language is important, too. And I think, for one specific element that comes to my mind is, I always see people using idioms that are really culturally specific. And being from India, like, not everything, these idioms don’t always make sense to people who are not born and raised in this country. And just being aware of those things, I think is a good tip, a good best practice. And then accessibility is important, too. So what is the point of communications if they’re not accessible, and so to me, that means you know, whatever you’re doing, try to make it available in various formats. I don’t know if it’s possible, provide a transcript for a video or use a web design that people can navigate if you have visual impairments, things like that, I think are really helpful things we can do for anybody working in marketing and communications. Yeah,
Workplace communication, inclusivity, and belonging
JM 37:13 definitely. And actually, I did want to go back a bit and bring back like a fear of being canceled. And because, you know, I was thinking about this in regards to handling communications and leaders were brought into my mind. And I definitely believe that there are leaders out there who are managing communications, who have a big fear of cancel being canceled. So like, you know, what would be your tips that you’d give them maybe even guiding questions as they’re preparing this communication that they have to send out? So
AP 37:41 I guess, if we’re talking in the context of, you know, responding to some sort of events, that’s the first thing that popped in my mind, I would say, you know, what is the mission of what your organization does? So, for example, if you are auto dealer, and there is something going on related to what’s happening with the strike, then maybe that’s a good place to put up, put out some messaging, right, I think it’s hard to be that person that is or that organization that is putting out messaging for everything, because it’s an impossible task. There, unfortunately, are too many, you know, atrocious things that happen throughout the world. And so I would tie it back to, is this what our organization is all about? And if it is, then it’s worth having a conversation on what those communications might look like. Yeah,
JM 38:33 and hence, like, it’s just reminding me that just having conversations where we can kind of process through differing opinions or disagreements, I think are just so much more valuable, so that we can even become more equipped to adapt in different situations, you know, like, I don’t know, that’s just what was brought to my mind when I was listening to you. Okay, still with like, I’m like, kind of delving into, like, the workplace scenario. Now, just to give us some direction here. Because I know, I feel like some of my questions are like, random right now. But this is where I’m going. So I wanted to bring like the group dynamic in here. So like for the facilitator, or manager, who is, you know, facilitating a group meeting, you know, what are some do’s and don’ts that you’d give them for fielding disagreements, and also keeping in mind freedom of expression in those group formats?
AP 39:21 All right. So I think I have maybe one big do and one big deal and I’m sure there’s many, many more, but I think for the do, just creating spaces for all voices to be heard, and, and respected and just fostering an environment where constructive disagreement, it’s seen as a path to learning and it’s seen as a path to growth, and it’s not seen as something we’re trying to avoid at all costs. And I think for the don’ts, we don’t need to permit disrespect, you know, because that disrespect, that’s what shuts down open communication. That’s what hinders inclusivity and if someone has a viewpoint, any kind of issue, you know, Oh, if we’re talking about politics, someone has an issue of political opinion. Just don’t create that space where open disrespect is is condoned. That’s not what we want to do. So one big deal on one big dome, that was
JM 40:13 a great do and a great don’t. And I feel like it kind of brought me back to where we started in this conversation when you’re talking about like, what leads to a hostile work environment, you know, so great point there. Great points. Okay, wanted to bring args here. Any thought stretches you wanted to bring to the table about how we can promote belonging and support and ERGs, while also being inclusive to like, multiple identities? Yeah,
AP 40:36 this is hard. And I think that there’s differing opinions on this. So I’ll kind of give my opinion and then offer a counter opinion, my opinion is that it’s really good to encourage all er, G’s to broaden their reach, so that we can engage members and allies, right, not just people who identify, but people who identify and allies in any sort of dialogue or activities. So we can foster that understanding and collaboration across identity groups. There are some and I think that there’s valid argument behind this, there are some who say, Well, no, we, the whole reason we wanted an erg, with this particular identity group is because we want to feel psychologically safe. And I think there’s something to be said for that. But my bias, I guess, in this way, tilts the other way, where I think allowing opening the door is really something that’s beneficial. So a few years ago, I was helping a law firm with women’s initiative that they were launching, and our intro calls with the law firm, one of the big things that they said, and one of the reasons I took this engagement was they said, you know, we want to make sure that in our communications throughout the presentation, that we make it clear that this is for everybody. This women’s initiative is not just for women, it’s it’s truly for everybody, and some of the most robust conversations. And they came from people who were not women, but they cared about what was happening at that law firm with women. And so that’s my personal slant. There’s definitely, you know, two schools of thought on this. But to me, opening the door has always been yielded positive outcomes. Great
JM 42:13 points, great points. And I think that, again, I hope that this stirs more discussion and thought process down the line for you know, how organizations want to set things up. So thank you for answering that. Okay. My next question is for the HR reps and leaders, who are often listening to concerns and complaints, right, maybe often in like individual formats, any last takeaways that you’d like to give them today?
AP 42:35 Sure, I would just say empathy, empathy, empathy, and then, you know, remembering confidentiality, or that’s important, too. So it’s such a rewarding, but sometimes challenging place to be in the workforce. And so HR hears a lot. Maybe there’s a lot of people that go to HR, just to say hello, and say things are going great. But oftentimes, it’s they’re going to HR, because there’s some concern, or there’s some complaints. And so I think remembering that confidentiality is key, and leading with empathy, and also taking time for self care. I know a lot of HR leaders who really extend themselves because they care so passionately about their organizations. I think that’s fantastic. But it’s that whole oxygen mask airplane analogy, you have to give yourself that mask first before you can help others. Great,
JM 43:27 yes. Love that point, as somebody who’s continuing to learn more and more about the value of self care. So yes. All right. Our last question for today. I know, we’ve been talking basically about getting to inclusion like this whole time, right? Freedom of expression, talking about civil disagreements, different things like that, but just just you know, ask it in a different format. And why? What defines an inclusive workplace culture to you
AP 43:53 all use inclusive school, but workplace works as well. So I mean, I guess for me, an inclusive culture would be a place where the quietest voice in the room gets the same amount of attention as the loudest voice in the room. So someone with a unique viewpoint, they’re not going to be dismissed as an outlier, but they’ll actually be valued as a member of that organization. And I think it also looks like having accommodations for staff members, we’re observing religious holidays, we have Diwali coming up. And, you know, just recognizing that is, that’s a sign of an inclusive culture, or maybe it also includes, you know, the way materials are accessible. We talked about this a little while ago, and making sure that they’re inclusive on that front. And I think, you know, it’s about a culture where there is a commitment to defending free speech, and also recognizing the importance of fostering an inclusive and respectful environment. And to me at the end of the day, all of this this whole culture, it doesn’t manifest itself through these grand grand gestures, but it’s more about these everyday actions that we take. It’s about this like dynamic environment where respect is just the default. And every single person’s story contributes to that collective narrative. And so, you know, I know I’m going on and on here, but I really think diversity and inclusion. It’s not just about different backgrounds. It’s about sharing ideas and learning from diverse perspectives, and really collaborating across all these differences that we have. And so let’s not run from these, let’s run towards them. So we can actually actively look to expose ourselves to different views and different ideas and be challenged in our thinking. So if we can do all of that, and engage across our differences, that to me, that’s what it’s all about. That’s why I do the work. I do. I
JM 45:50 don’t even know what to say. I’m going to just drop the mic right there. That was a great response. Thank you so much, again, Anjali for being here. It’s been truly a pleasure talking about civil disagreements with you. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.
AP 46:04 Thank you so much for having me.
JM 46:33 Thank you for joining us today. As we continue to explore how we can enable diversity at work, follow us and get notified of our latest episodes. Also, we want to hear from you. Please like rate and review us on your podcast app or wherever you’re listening in. If you want to contact us, please visit diverseek.com – that is d i v e r s e e k.com This episode was produced by Madhu Nair, edited by Cansin Dalak, researched by JOLENE MEI, music composed by Nicholas Lang and our production team includes Keisha Williams, Prashant Balbhar and Maria Querina. I am your host JOLENE MEI and you have been listening to DIVERSEEK.
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