Chief DEI Officer
Dr. Ketwana D. Schoos (Dr. KS) 0:01 So that’s where I want folks to get beyond like you need to. For me, I’m like, if I can’t answer the why I’m not just subscribing just because somebody told me I need to subscribe to it, I need to know a little bit more before, it’s a bandwagon that I’m going to jump on. And I don’t think in today’s society, folks are doing their due diligence in that regard. We’re just hopping on to these buzzwords, these get the sticker shock, and we don’t go beyond it. And when you really go down to the core, I’m like, that’s not even what it means. Right? And you know, and it shouldn’t be as polarizing as it is, but they become these I will say divisive terms, but it’s just the kind of sticker shock face value of immediate kind of reaction that we are, we’ve been kind of told to believe that it should be negative. We’re really if we do our due diligence, like I said, and peel back the layers and become educated, then we can probably have some very beneficial and intriguing and fruitful conversations about the terms and not just stop at the surface level.
Diversity, equity, and inclusion in higher education
(JM) 0:56 Hello, everyone. This is JOLENE MEI, your host for the DIVERSEEK podcast, where we talk with real people doing real work in the diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging space. If you want to explore what people are doing right, what positive impacts are happening or even how positive changes can be done. You’re in the right place. We welcome you to join us.
Today we have Dr. Ketwana Schoos with us. Dr. Ketwana is the Chief Diversity Equity and Inclusion officer at the Community College of Allegheny County. Dr. Ketwana is passionate about the opportunity to create welcoming, inclusive and safe workplaces and learning environments for students and employees to show up and feel a sense of belonging. She has over 20 years of experience as an administrator and faculty member promoting diversity, equity and inclusion in a variety of college and university settings. She has also served as professor of African American History and cultural diversity studies during her time simultaneously working as a DI administrator, Dr. Ketwana is well versed in Title Nine civil rights, strategic planning and compliance. Also, can you believe that Dr. Ketwana was born with gray hair, it happens to be a trait that runs on her father’s side of the family. And she studied Spanish as her undergraduate major and has a bucket list goal to visit every country where Spanish is the official language. And please note all statements made by Dr. Ketwana during the podcast are solely her own and do not express the views or opinions of her employer. And with that, welcome, Dr. Ketwana. So happy to have you today and looking forward to learn from you as well.
(Dr. KS) 2:32 Thank you. Likewise, I’m excited to be here. And thank you for the opportunity. Yes, of course,
(JM) 2:36 I’m feeling honored. So thank you again, we can go back and forth. But let’s go ahead and get started. But yes, I know I said a lot about you in your intro, but also wanted to give you space to talk about yourself. So feel free to tell us more about yourself, your background, and your approach in your work. So
(Dr. KS) 2:52 I always like to share that I am a small town girl. I’m from Albion Michigan, where dad on the map, but we’re like this small, tight knit community. It was really important in terms of my formative years and just gave me the benchmark of where I am like the platform is where I am today. So from Albion Michigan undergraduate experience was at Central Michigan University there, my major was Spanish I minored in political science, when I went to Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana, and that’s where I did my master’s work. So my first degree is in African American and African Diaspora Studies. And my second is in higher education and student affairs. I initially thought I was going to be a faculty member in African American studies. But along the way, I caught the bug of administration. And that’s what I pursued the second master’s, but that was my foundation. So as you said in my intro, that I’ve always taught us some type of diversity or black history class, wherever I’ve been, that’s part of my formative experiences in higher ed. So it’s really important to me in terms of being faculty alongside being administrator because for me the full experience the students support, and I went to the University of Pittsburgh for my doctoral degree in higher education management. And I’ve been working these past 20 years in diversity, equity inclusion from every aspect of the game that you can think of student support, community engagement, policies and procedures, academic skill building. So I’ve had an opportunity to have a lot of touch points with the eni. from a global perspective working with students across a lot of different institution types from my current two year community college to working for regional campus for the Ohio State University was my first job worked at Ball State University, which is midsize school in Muncie, Indiana. And I’ve had some experiences to work in that urban regional downtown institution. So Indiana University Purdue University, I’ve worked there and then most directly before coming to the Community College of Allegheny County, I was at Washington and Jefferson college where I served as Assistant Dean of Students for inclusive campus engagement. So the out of the classroom student experience is what I spent a lot of time doing. Yeah,
(JM) 4:55 like you said earlier, like the full experience of student support and also on the administrative side. With that I’m like, so excited to learn from you with, like the knowledge that you’ve also acquired and experience. So with that, I’m gonna go ahead and segue into today’s topic for our listeners. So we are going to be reviewing the effects of the affirmative action ruling that the Supreme Court made this past June 2023, because I’m pretty sure this podcast will come out later, maybe in 2024, possibly. But I just wanted to say that that’s like, really cool. I’m excited to again, learn from your expertise on this. So firstly, before we dive in, if you can quickly describe what the Supreme Court ruling concerning affirmative action is, because you I think people hear it, but they don’t really understand it, and then to how has this affected your work and initiatives in higher education.
Affirmative action ruling’s impact on higher education
(Dr. KS) 5:40 So I was gonna go back some years and a couple of different court cases, but just one in particular, I think that gives the basis for why this 2023 decision is important. So in the 1970s 1978, there was the University of California regents against versus Baki. And that case, set the standard for affirmative action, right in how we utilize it, and especially in higher education. So essentially what that case Becky was a white male, he had applied to medical school twice denied. And he ended up suing the institution saying that he was denied application for reasons that the law would have protected them against, right. So at that time, they had a quota system. So for 100 students that they admitted they held 16 spots for what they consider to be minority students. So Black, Asian, Chicano, or Mexican, American, Latino, Hispanic. So that was the gamut of pretty much non white in terms of race and ethnicity that these 16 spots were held or for. And then Becky’s complaint was he had higher academic profile than the some of the students who were a part of the 16. So that 1978, Supreme Court decision struck down quota system, so those are unconstitutional, right. So you can’t hold a specific number of spots. I don’t care if it’s for employment or admission into college for a certain group of folks. But what it did give the opportunity to do was to give preferential treatment, right so or this affirmative action to help correct past discrimination that affects a lot of these minoritized groups who haven’t opportunities, right. So the same way, some institutions of higher education, you can get extra points, right in terms of emissions if your legacy, right, so if you belong to certain groups, you can get extra points. But you can’t just have a spot help for you just because you’re on legacy, or just because you belong to a minoritized group. That is important and understanding where we are in 2023. That decision from the Supreme Court, you’re saying that race, conscious admissions for higher education is unconstitutional. So no longer can you give that point for matters concerning race right in the way that you could in the past. So that is going to have an effect potentially, in the future demographic of our students on our college campuses, especially for students who are attending or attempting to attend predominately white institutions? Where if it, you know, if the point matters, all right, if they’re using point systems, I’m just using that very broadly, then the Supreme Court decision is going to say that that is no longer permissible is unconstitutional to do that. So that’s why it’s important, right? So I think a lot of misconceptions around affirmative action generally, like who had benefits and who it doesn’t a lot of people default thinking is something that’s just an opportunity for black folks. And this night, I think, historically, white women have benefited from affirmative action policies and practices, especially in the workplace, more often than not, but here we are in for institutions are going to have to think differently, if they have a priority of diversifying their student body.
(JM) 8:35 Yeah, that was great, great answer. Thank you for that depth, and that you actually started to answer my next question. So you may have answered it, but just wanted to make sure to give it space, assumptions versus reality. Were there any other examples of assumptions versus reality concerning this ruling that you’d like to bring clarity to,
(Dr. KS) 8:52 that was pretty much like it is just about admissions is just in terms of higher education at this point. But I do think I want to say that this is potentially just a starting point, like it could have a domino effect in areas that we haven’t even thought about, or that could, you know, reverberate throughout these institutions in a different type of way. So I’m just I don’t know if this ends up being the floor, or if it’s the ceiling, like if you’re thinking about future implications of other cases that are not going to come before the Supreme Court, that can have different levels of a magnitude of detrimental effect for our students of color, especially since this is particularly about race based admissions. So I do think we kind of open the gate the floodgate, you know, from preferably that I don’t know what I don’t know, but it’s potentially scary. And when you continue to pull back on these policies and procedures that are in place, I felt spa for like the Civil Rights Movement wasn’t in isolation. It was because we were looking for equality and opportunities right at that. So when you start to roll back, it gets very scary, right, because this is race based admissions for higher education. There’s just one thing that was fought for but we have a lot of different things that were fought for a lot of legislation that came out in the 1960s in terms of civil rights opportunities that we’re seeing being peeled back from the highest court of this land. And I think that’s a scary place to be when it’s compounded with a lot of these other societal political factors that are in play. And when you have this misinterpretation or misrepresentation of what something is or isn’t, but that falls on deaf ears, that doesn’t doesn’t matter. Like they’re not they’re this kind of, we have tunnel vision of a single end game. And we don’t know what kind of the rules of engagement or terms of engagement are, that puts us in a very scary place for me from a policy standpoint, and the effects that it could have in higher education moving forward.
College admissions and student success, with a focus on historical context and current trends
(JM) 10:36 Yeah. Wow, you’ve given me so much to think about, actually. And I do appreciate that you brought back okay, like, where are we having tunnel vision? And how can we, because for me, what I also got from that was like, present versus future? And also historically, what should we draw from what’s happened historically, to what might happen in the future? And also, we’re working in this limitation, right of like, we just know what’s happening in the present, right? And also, where are we being too tunnel vision? And how can we kind of code switch? I don’t even know like, I don’t like the word code switch. But how can we be adaptable between those two perspectives of when we need to pay attention to this thing? And when we need to have a holistic perspective? So I think I’m interested to see where this conversation goes, I think a good place to start is talking about the stats, because I know you did tell me about the changing landscape. So let’s review that. I think for you, what stats would you like to share that are important, currently, or historically that you want to bring to the forefront here to this conversation? When it’s concerning college admissions and or student success?
(Dr. KS) 11:36 Yeah, you said something that I want to pinpoint in and I know, we’re gonna, where we will specifically speak about it later in the conversation. But when you said like, we only know what’s in the present, I think that’s the challenge of where we are like, we know what’s in the past, who we’re choosing to only to start here, right and where we are currently. And I’m saying we, from politicians, to policy makers, to folks sitting at tables, like making decisions that are affecting education, are choosing to start here, we have the history of this country, right in terms of the blueprint of where we can head where we’ve been that we don’t turn those corners again. So that’s what gets for me the scary piece. So I did appreciate you saying that if we’re you know, the fact that a lot of folks are choosing to just start with the President, and are ignoring the past, intentionally, we’re going to talk about that a lot of this anti de and our legislation that’s taking place in states like Florida and the Texas and they’re having, you know, conversations in Ohio, a lot of these curriculum base like trying to ignore history, like it didn’t happen, though it happened. And we have to refer back to when we’re choosing not to, and that’s going to be a problem moving forward. But in terms of the landscape, there’s this thing that they’ve been talking about since I was a master student, the cliff, right. So I knew in the early 2000s, it was projected, or mid 2000s. And I was in school that by 2025, just by birth rates and the demographics, especially in the northeast, we’re going to have a sharp decline in the number of students who are the traditional age 18 year old, who are potentially we are still in higher education. So that is where we are, we’re two years out, I think some folks have predicted that we’re probably already here, because we see decline in numbers of enrollment across the country, and part of the higher education. So that is, from a demographic standpoint, just by sheer numbers of students who are eligible in that traditional age to pursue higher education, those numbers have sharply declined. So the pie is getting smaller. In terms of recruitment, we’re competing for a smaller number of resources, if you’re on the mission side, in terms of students who could potentially be, you know, fill in opportunities at our various institutions.
(JM) 13:48 Hello, listeners, time for a quick break to give your brain a quick rest. If you have not done so already, and would like to support our mission, please follow our podcast, leave a review, or share this episode with someone you think would enjoy it. Thank you so much for listening in. And let’s get back to the conversation. Okay, so I’m going to bring back history in here because I think you made a great point in response to my other point. So because maybe this is related here, too. So I wanted to you were mentioning how, you know, some may be choosing to not pay attention to historical events. So what historical issues have you seen that you think are important that we should not ignore? And on top of that, how do current findings compare and contrast historical trends to
(Dr. KS) 14:33 Yeah, when I made the comment, I’m thinking of things like abandon for me the likelihood that I do like the teaching of, of African American History or, you know, minorities, hearts history groups, like from a curriculum standpoint, there are some states where that’s illegal. Now, there are some states where my office doesn’t exist or has exists under another name at a campus I’m in the office of diversity, equity inclusion, some folks aren’t funding diversity, equity and inclusion. Right. So you’re sitting out the pipeline of being able to provide that education to support for the students who are underrepresented or reflective of those backgrounds. And for me, but more damaging is that we’re saying that their histories don’t exist, we’re not even going to teach them. So when I see headlines of like, oh, slavery, like it was a skill building opportunity for black people, it was free labor, right, that built this country on the backs of black people, right? So when you twist that narrative, and you’re telling that to elementary age students who are ready, we don’t have a lot of in my class, that’s one of the first assignments I gave, we talked, I want to know, what was your experience with African American history in particular, because that’s the course that I’m teaching in your K through 12. And probably less than a quarter of the students, you know, have gone beyond learning of the Underground Railroad, they may know of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Rosa Parks may be a little bit familiar with the civil rights movement, but have not had a concentrated parallel history teaching where this information like these things that have happened is integrated into what they’re learning in terms of curriculum. So you have this mainstream curriculum that discounts the contributions, the people who are the notable folks, just everything that the black experience has been, and this undergirding of the formation of this country since 1619, and argue even before is being left out. So when you have that being competing with the fact that then slavery was this wonderful thing, and it made them gave them increased skills, like it’s unbelievable, to me where a lot of these policymakers are heading in a very dangerous way. That’s what I mean, when I talk about the discounting of it, like a lot of this book bans, preventing these this type of curriculum preventing these types of offices to exist on college campuses to support students who we know historically have been underserved, had been shut out have been picketed have been, riots have been everything to say that we don’t want you here at these institutions. I’ve had very depressing histories and experiences that we learned about through the Civil Rights Movement, when we had the influx of students of color on these campuses, especially black students, you can’t just wipe that away with the stroke of a pen. And this was happening nowadays, a lot of this current anti D and AI legislation. So I’m and my question is the why, right? Because it’s not like it didn’t happen. But you don’t want it to be told. But it’s American history, right at the same time. So I can go into tangent about that. And I’ll stop there in case you have any follow up questions. But that’s what is for me getting at the core of effects of this, these concentrated efforts to do away with opportunities to learn. And we’re already getting a very limited exposure in our K through 12. Education, and it’s having effects at the higher education level, currently, where I said,
(JM) 17:41 Yeah, I think you bring up great points, because anecdotally, for me, when I was listening to you, I could see myself going through education, and an elementary school being like, this doesn’t make sense or asking these questions. And then later on realizing that, you know, I felt like I did have a great education. However, there were some myths points in perspective where it was Eurocentric, right. So, you know, those are the things that I figured out later. And I also figured out even more by taking cultural related studies in college, you know, so that’s how I took what you said is like, Oh, this is important in this way, because I seeked out those types of educational opportunities, I was able to have more of a holistic perspective, and it didn’t really change, like how I felt about like the America,
(Dr. KS) 18:21 right, it’s give you a fuller picture, right, what what really was the history of this country? Yeah. And the contributions of Pope.
(JM) 18:28 Yeah. And it made me curious. And then even more, like I would say, even culturally sensitive, and understanding Oh, hey, like, what is this? Like? I don’t remember learning about that. Like, let me go look into that, you know, so it’s just really interesting. And I think it is a missed opportunity that, you know, in some states that, as you mentioned, could be affected and is and are affected. I was very,
(Dr. KS) 18:48 very, very fortunate that we had a lot of community folks who were doing community work. Like I knew about Kwanzaa, we participate in a lot of African American cultural events, and, you know, museum trips and those types of things to learn. But my first class, I was very fortunate I senior in high school is really what piqued my interest of having an African American history class. And I sought out at Central Michigan University at the time, they didn’t have an African American Studies minor, or major, but they did have courses in different disciplines. So you find the English class here, a history class there a sociology class here, political science that focused on that. So I kind of pieced together my own minor of courses that gave me more exposure. And education is home to African American experience. And that is what made me very interested in I still, you know, so I chose to go to IU to pursue the African American Studies, Master’s degree right to kind of bring it all together, but we shouldn’t have to do I don’t have to piece together learning about mainstream American history, right? So civil war, or these different doors with the presidents and all of that we don’t have to go, you know, piecemeal in connecting the dots on our own but a lot of us are reduced to that because it’s just not a part of the curriculum that we’re getting. in K through 12,
(JM) 20:01 I think it’s important to look at all sides here to see like, okay, what can we be critical of on all of these sides? And what are the implications of that to opportunity for success? Right. And I think what we’ve been talking about, it’s like kind of overarching the theme of context. And I know we’ve talked about context, not only context given and contextual opportunities given in education, but in current teachings right now as well, right? Because you know, we’re human, we’re not omnipotent. We don’t know everything. So with that, I wanted to ask for you like, in your perspective, what has gone right? And what do you think we need to do better when we are teaching about and giving context related to DEI initiatives and teachings, just based off of your experience? Yeah,
(Dr. KS) 20:43 I think I can’t, singular, not singular, but like, my background is my background like, self identify as African American black. So that is my interest that I then put at the forefront in terms of what I’m pursuing in terms of when I’m learning on my own or teaching or trying to reinforce through the courses that I teach. But I think what we have right is that we have access to all of this information, I think what we can do better is how do we do to your point, pull it together in a way that is definitely comprehensive. And that takes into account right when we have an opportunity to a lot of understand K through 12 is scripted from this state level of like what has to be taught in certain weeks. But when we can bring in information, and we don’t even have to categorize it as supplemental, but how can we continue to to expand the learning, right, then we take those opportunities unprompted, right to, especially if we’re in districts or areas where you have multicultural classrooms, these students deserve to learn about people who look like them, who have contributed to history, and even to the present, through whatever class it doesn’t have to just be a history class, like it can be any discipline, I argue, has contributions from folks who are from a variety of different backgrounds, and ethnicities and racial groups, and other characteristics that can give a more fuller opportunity and expand what people saw. So I would love it when it gets to a point where you can say a topic or you can say a career, or you can say a trajectory, and you don’t have this one person in mind, like it’s a multicultural, and it can be to whoever it needs to, it can be whoever needs to be for the person who’s dreaming about whatever they want to do in their future. But I do think we get when I was little, there’s like certain toys were limited that you played with in terms of, you know, from racial backgrounds, or, you know, demographic differences. But I would love it so that we get to a place where everybody can dream and see themselves and whatever position and we’re not limited by these four corners of the boxes that have been prematurely like drawn for us that we don’t get an opportunity as students to dictate what we learn or how we learn it. So I think it’s coming upon the educators to be holistic and diverse in their practices every time not just during certain, you know, months of the year celebrations. And when we’re given specific awareness, we need to do that through 65.
Addressing misinformation and engaging in respectful dialogue
(JM) 22:58 Yeah, you bring up great points, because it’s like, Okay, we are kind of drawn this trajectory. And we do have the capability to explore outside of that. But I want to go back to context, because I think, for the policymakers, for those who are able to look into context and things like that, because I do believe what you know, does impact the decisions that you make. So I wanted to ask if you had any, like resources, like one or two resources that you’d give to somebody in a policymaking position, so that they can learn and seek out, you know, a different perspective that will add to their decision making, whether it is a policymaker, or someone working in education in a leadership position. Yeah,
(Dr. KS) 23:35 my advice would be to draw upon the experts, right within your states within your region within your cities that represent the decisions that you’re making a lot of folks making decisions. I have no clue, right? About curriculum, right? So you have folks who are certified trained experts in that feels so drawn upon the teachers give opportunities for professional development, right with your professors at these institutions. Like there are a lot of instances like we’re already doing the good work, especially in higher education across this country, right every level. So I do think it’s a misstep when folks are making decisions and determination and not by inviting the experts are those with experiences, lived experiences right to the field, I’ll use expert can’t see my fingers, but in quotes, right air quotes, because I don’t, the degree doesn’t make you an expert, like your lived experience can do that as well. So I do think we missed up by not going we’re supposed to be representing our constituents. When we get into these different levels of government and representation. We don’t often reach back to invite folks to the table, we are making these decisions in isolation, and sometimes based off of misinformation. And I think if we engage at these different levels from the K through 12 level and especially at the higher education level, then some of these decisions wouldn’t be made in the first place because you will have people voicing why they shouldn’t be and you should take that into account. Okay,
(JM) 24:55 misinformation, I think this is something that is alive. experience for many of us, where we are talking to someone we care about probably for me, that’s how it is like I’m talking to someone I care about, but they have different views for me. And I’m hearing them say things that is misinformation. I don’t think anything less of them. I know that they’ve taken something in that is misinformation. And I think this is an interaction point that I think is really key for us to continue doing the work right for those who are not even dei facilitators. Right. So with that, I wanted to ask, Do you have any do’s and don’ts when it comes to just the interactive piece of addressing misinformation?
(Dr. KS) 25:30 Yeah, I think for me, I don’t is the manner that you do it right. We don’t, to your point of when we were little right. There’s a lot of things that I learned through church through from educators. And I wish I were back talk to my mind, right. So my, whatever her perspectives and things were, so we need to understand that we absorb information from what’s around us, right. So sometimes I can’t name why I think how I think or what I think, but I know it to be true until I’m challenged to think differently or expand upon, I think so I do think the approach to folks matter when you’re challenging sometimes, you know, when appropriate, bringing the facts that kind of counterbalance it and I enter these spaces like I might not change your opinion. And that’s not ever the end goal. But I’m gonna give you another perspective. So I think when we come in with like, you know, it’s right or wrong, like there’s two answers, like, you know, it could be a third answer to this too, right. So I just think if we entered these conversations, to absorb to learn to be critical thinkers, and to have our perspectives challenged and challenged doesn’t have to be a confrontational thing. It can be like, Oh, I didn’t know that, or no one ever told me that or that’s not how I learned it. But I can understand where you’re coming from, or what you know, what I can understand like, there are a lot of things I can go into into my family, my dad was from Birmingham, Alabama was from Bessemer, Alabama was just a small city, close proximity to Birmingham, in the 1950s. And 60s, when he grew up, his perspective on race relations, where he had to live through is going to be completely different for me growing up in Michigan in the 1980s. So I have, there’s a lot of things that I didn’t experience, but I experienced through him even and when he passed two years ago, and when I looked at his birth certificate, and for me, when I saw his race set colored, that took me back, like in it situates me into this time of context where where he was born in the 1950s I colored is his race on his birth certificate, very different from mine, it says black, or most African American, but don’t say color, right, this is not an acceptable term that we use to describe black people here, in in the present. But that all matters. But in Birmingham, Alabama, I’m not surprised, right in the 1950s, those those types of things where you have to give people the benefit of the doubt to have the doubt to a degree about I’m hoping that folks are in these conversations and exchanges, not to be confrontational, not to change people’s minds, but maybe expand their perspective and horizons. And I think you walk away feeling good about whatever it is that you can contribute in making this Take it or leave it that’s that’s on them, like you’re not responsible for somebody else’s learning are changing their mind. But you can engage in a way that’s healthy, respectful, we have to get back to having a respectful dialogue. And not just we just say I think we see a lot of it on between social media and just media in general of like, everything doesn’t have to be bickering back and forth, finger pointing like you can engage in healthy disagreement. And walk away in a cup, maybe at the same level of fullness. But you know, it’s because you’ve gained, you know, poured into little, you know, a little bit felt dropped out and you keep replenishing, and those exchanges. So that’s how I like to live my life in terms of being in exchange. And some days you walk away a little bit more depleted than others, but like I’m growing and learning continually in the process, too. And I hope other people can take that on as a perspective, especially with the en eyes have been so you’re always going to walk away, you never want you they’re not going to want to engage, you’re going to always walk away depleted and defeated. And then it’s going to limit your learning and growing and then potentially the learning and growing for students primarily, and then other folks that you encounter family members, your communities as well.
Political slogans and their historical context
(JM) 29:00 Thank you so much for answering that to that depth. Because, you know, I think that for me, what I’ve also noticed is I think that there’s also this stereotype out there for those who do support DEI that were shoving it in people’s faces and like, forcing it and that’s not the reality that I know, you know, I think there’s a place for justice. And there’s a place for different types of approaches. But I appreciate that answer. And I do want to give space to acknowledging this existence because I am fighting through like, and fighting as you know, I’m using it in this way, not as a violence or even like, like aggressive term, but like I’m literally having to like peel back these layers of like, No, this is like not who I am. This is like a stereotype that you’ve been consuming, right when I’m not trying to force you to agree with me, you know? And so I’m going into these conversations and you may have to or other listeners, where you’re talking to somebody and they’re telling you the rhetoric that they are consuming and automatically assuming that you’re going to be punching back. But that’s I think if we punch back I’m biased in this. But I think that’s like pulling people away from what we’re trying to do. Right. So I want to hold that to today’s discussion, because we are going to be talking about very political esque things right in today’s conversation. And I know, I think that there is also I have the bias of like thinking politics equals fighting. Yeah, that’s
(Dr. KS) 30:17 that’s kind of what we see. Right? That’s just where we are, unfortunately, where we don’t have this kind of healthy discourse.
(JM) 30:24 Exactly, exactly. And I know it takes work and it’s not easy. So with that, I just wanted to give space and you did a beautiful job with that response, as well. But we are going to get into some phrases, that you brought up some of these phrases as well. And I think it’d be great to talk about them historically, what they mean now, and how we can continue again, it’s with that theme of what I’m talking about when you’re starting to have that conversation and you’re feeling like you’re having to like peel these layers off. Right? So the first phrase is Make America Great Again, and you touched a little bit on the history of this phrase. And I wanted to give space for that. So feel free to share more on this raises history and why it’s relevant to today and how we should be managing conversations where it might be coming up. Yeah.
(Dr. KS) 31:05 So I prefer it’s wood from the political kind of platform or slogan and our initial conversation of President Trump when he was running for for Office. Right. So we were having conversations about like, again, right. So I mean, it was great before. So this has been it’s not I know, he tried to copyright it. But he isn’t the first person running for president who’s used this plugin, you know, it was used in the 80s. Reagan is using Bill Clinton refer to making America great George HW Bush, I think use it as part of his platform, too. But I was referring to it back and we were having a conversation about what happened on the Capitol, January 6, right. And when you bring it all together again, and there are a lot of things happening at the end of President Trump’s first term, where he was putting in some executive orders that were doing away with opportunities to promote and have conversations about DNI initiatives, we’d call them divisive concepts like in the workplace, especially for anybody who was receiving funding from the federal government or contracting with the federal government in that regard. So everything from sex stereotypes, talking about genders talking about race, there was a counter, we had the 1619 project that came out that was talking about the history of African Americans, there was this calendar platform that he was trying to promote the 1776 project, right to go back to this time, right? So I’m talking about going back to the space and time 1776 Anything pre for me like Civil War, where slavery prevailed in terms of the condition of the African Americans in this country, a lot of different dynamics where a lot of minoritized or you know, persons of color weren’t prevalent in government politics positions, like so we had a very different structure. And that phrase takes me back to the onset of when at the end of Reconstruction in this country. So after the Civil War, where there we have this kind of almost 10 years of black folks in particular former slaves, having opportunities in unprecedented ways from education, to creating communities to just their livelihood. And that was quickly done away with when we had the resurgence that implement the creation of this resurgence of white supremacist groups. That’s what that phrase goes back to me with so what you have in 2021, right, January 6, the Capitol with what the rhetoric and the vitriol that the president at the time was condoning and spread, and even through our social media platforms, groups like the you know, that have been designated as like hate groups like the proud boys and these types of different groups that were all active around this time and had a role in what happened at the Capitol. On that day. It takes me back to a place where organizations and groups like the Ku Klux Klan or the Knights of the white Camilia were purposely created to limits black participation, politically there store black men and destroy black communities. Because there was seen as this competition of like kind of a zero sum mentality, like there’s going to take away from a birthright of mine. So that’s how it went it that’s what it means to me, right, because Juana and it can be something completely different to someone else. But for me, that was a very, it’s a very loaded slogan, and it wasn’t in isolation. And I think it’s very particular. And going back to a point in time, where opportunities were limited, especially for people who look like me.
Critical race theory and its misuse
(JM) 34:26 Oh, thank you so much for that context. Like I learned something from that as well, because I only know in my present time, you know, and I know we kind of touched on it in previous discussions, but I think that there’s also like, different understandings according to generations of different concepts. And I know you mentioned like, okay, come in with that knowledge that like what you are using, the words you’re using might mean something different from somebody else. So that gave me that knowledge from you. So thank you so much for that. Okay, so another term that I want to throw in here is critical race theory, because that one’s like a super hot topic, and I’m like, I don’t know how to speak about.
(Dr. KS) 35:03 Right. I think the people who are speaking about it know how, yeah. So another one taken out of context being abused and misused and not with original intent.
(JM) 35:12 Exactly. And it’s like, I feel like I can’t speak right now, because it’s very triggering. And I think there’s like new traumas being made with these terms, right? And so I’m like, okay, and you know, that when you’re angry, like, your IQ goes down, right? Like you cannot listen, of like, okay, I don’t think I can talk about this right now. And I don’t even know if I’m the right person to talk about this with. So let me like, do my research and all that jazz. So again, expert here. Firstly, tell us what critical race theory really is. and dive into the negative assumptions. And how would you suggest we can try to like, unravel? I know, you know, we’re only going with the limitation of our perspectives here, right? Like every person is different. But yeah, I just wanted to hear what you had to say for that term. Yeah. So
(Dr. KS) 35:53 critical race theory is a term that emerged in the 1970s. And it was, it’s coming from like the legal framework. So it is being critical about this concept of race as a social construct. But I think sometimes when we hear things like race or racism, we just think on an individual level, like, folks are like the Archie bunkers are these, you know, don’t like anybody, right bigots like it has something nasty, terrible to say about anyone and treats folks differently, like on an individual level, right? So, critical race theory is coming into play, like I said, from this legal framework to examine more have systems in place that limit opportunities, especially for black people, especially for people of color, especially for minoritized groups, from thriving, right. So it is looking at laws, it is looking at policies, it’s looking at procedures, it’s looking at systems of oppression, through this lens of being critical, saying that it’s more than just Jimmy or Sally who don’t like Bobby and Mickey, right? It is like how Jimmy and Sally’s role within their institution as potentially management’s who can create and draft policies that say, You know what, Billy, and Sally can’t even attempt to be a part of this organization, because of whatever limitations we’re gonna put on it from the front end, based on these limiting policies. So we think about it in terms of like, so firm banking, or within like, you know, real estate like redlining, right, so we would draw spaces where banks wouldn’t, and this is like a practice I happen in this country. I think some people are, you might continue, where you wouldn’t permit number one, like if you’re going to give folks an opportunity to to have a loan to be a homeowner, and you’re going to limit the communities in which they can purchase a home, right? So redlining areas of where folks depending on the color of their skin can or cannot live like so limiting those types of opportunities. We see it politically now this is continuing like gerrymandering, like this political geography of all these kinds of squiggly curvy, no straight lines about different districts in terms of the constituent base that then goes into how people vote policies and procedures, then govern, you know, from the local level state level on and above of how we get folks voted into office, the areas that they represent these types of things. So critical race theory is gonna go in and say, You know what, like, it’s just this isn’t happenstance, right, they are concentrated efforts to limit opportunities for folks based on their race, or provide opportunities for folks based on their race. So let’s take a different critical, more nuanced, look at that to peel away these layers in terms of systems, policies, practices, going beyond just what somebody individually believes or what they think. Yeah,
(JM) 38:31 it’s, it’s interesting, because hearing the historical impacts of both of these terms that we’ve talked about, you’ve really done a great job of talking about the inequities historically that have occurred and that are tied to the context of these terms. Right. So I think, you know, for me how I’m taking that is, when I talk about these terms, or when I hear them, I’m like thinking about it at a superficial level, I’m going to just say that vulnerably, and we have to recognize the historical impacts that each term has. And I hope that today, it’s going to encourage listeners to do more of their own research so that they can equip themselves and educate themselves. Because what we’re talking about isn’t just something that occurred today, right? Yeah.
(Dr. KS) 39:13 A lot of folks are just like, it’s bad, or it’s nasty, but you don’t know why. Or is it right is somebody said it and told you that it is versus you don’t like you said your own homework to see like, Oh, is it really like, you know, for me, we’re gonna very simple like the two plus two equal four here. Right? Does it make sense? Right? So I do think I’ve seen a lot and it’s pretty sad when our Washington like these sort of social media reels of somebody will go in and they’ll ask, you know, a person like me like so what is critical race theory? Oh, it’s just terrible. Why is it terrible? Well, I really don’t even know what it is. But somebody’s telling me it’s terrible, and it’s terrible. So that’s where I want folks to get beyond like you need to for me, I’m like, if I can’t answer the why I’m not just subscribing just because somebody is telling me I need to subscribe to it. I need to know a little bit more before it’s a bandwagon that aren’t going to jump on and I don’t think in today’s society folks are doing their due diligence in that regard. We’re just hopping on to these buzzwords, he’s getting a sticker shock, and we don’t go beyond it. And when you really go down to the core, I’m like, that’s not even what it means, right? And you know, and it shouldn’t be as polarizing as it is, but they become these I will say divisive terms. You see a lot of it and over 400 pieces of anti DNI legislation filtering through different levels of state government now, that are a lot of them have critical race theory as the moniker or woke in the in the moniker in the title of these different laws and legislations, but we don’t even know at the core what these terms mean, but it’s just a kind of sticker, shock, face value, have immediate kind of reaction that we are, we’ve been kind of told to believe that it should be negative, we’re really, if we do our due diligence, like I said, and peel back the layers and become educated, then we can probably have some very beneficial and intriguing and fruitful conversations about the terms and not just stop at the surface level.
Language and identity in a diverse workplace
(JM) 40:55 Yeah, for sure. And I know that we are operating in this space, where some of us will be so curious to like, want to learn about it. And there are others that will be like, they won’t, they won’t look it up. And that’s, you know, that’s up to them. You’re not like responsible for anybody’s learning, right. And I think that that’s something that we have to that I have to come to terms with Not we but I am, you know, be like, Okay, well, maybe you should look that up or like if you want like, here’s a resource or like, you know, something like that. But we are working within limitations and also understanding this, you know, and so yeah, just something that I’m continually processing through wanting to make sure we had any space for any further terms, and the other divisive terms that you wanted to bring to the space and clarify before we move on.
(Dr. KS) 41:39 Yeah, I know, in some of our pre talks, we use the terms like I just mentioned, well, you know, colorblind, like those types of terms that color by nominee will hear as much referring to like policies, but just delving deeper or like understanding like, what’s the harm that can be done to communities and to folks individually, if we don’t do our take our time to understand what it is that we’re saying it how we’re saying it in the context and what we’re seeing it in, because if somebody walked up to me as a black woman and said, I’m, you know, colorblind, I treat everybody the same, I want you to recognize the fact that I’m a black woman and understand that in my experience in this country, it hasn’t always been treated fairly or equally, or even with, you know, equity as a the presenter of the internet space. So it matters to me that I’m a black woman in this DNI space doing this work. And for me, I’m like, I don’t I check it out the door, like they’re responsible for the oversight of non discrimination policy for the institution that I work for. So we receive complaints based on race, based on a lot of other different protected classes gender, so I have to check out the door how to recognize I can’t walk into these spaces colorblind, or I’m not going to be fair. And I’m not going to be equitable in these or just in these processes, where I don’t recognize a part of my identity, that could cloud like, this gives you an opportunity to go and bounce an idea or a thought like, Hey, I’m thinking this, like somebody helped me make sure that I’m seeing passed me, right, so that I’m being fair in these spaces. And what I’m saying, and I’m making determinations that can lead up to separation from institution or suspension for students. So I need to be clear minded in that too. So I think that’s why terms like colorblind, could be damaging, because it just kind of doesn’t give you a free pass, not to acknowledge somebody’s identity, and what they bring to the table and what they bring to the space.
(JM) 43:23 Yeah, completely. And I want to also recognize that the model that you gave right now, it was not scary. It was like, Oh, hey, I want you to recognize who I am individually as a human. You know, and I think that there’s also the other side of that, like the fear of speaking and being wrong, right. And I think with that, if you are afraid of that just I encourage you to maybe check in with that person individually. Maybe like in that group setting being acknowledged at the group setting might be embarrassing for them. So check in with them, like individually and say, Hey, like you said that I know you met the best. But what actually I wanted to let you know, A, B and C,
(Dr. KS) 43:56 right, you always have to acknowledge the intent versus impact and you control one and not the other, you control the intent of how you hoped something that come across, you hoped you said, or you hope will resonate, but you don’t get a chance to control somebody else’s impact. So I do appreciate you highlighting the importance of checking in, because we don’t want to do harm intentionally or unintentionally, but when we do not go back to, you know, circle back and have that that conversation just to make sure we’re on the same page. And then you know, when somebody tells you Well, you said something, and you rubbed me the wrong way, or either hurt my feelings or made me feel smiled or minimized or didn’t acknowledge my presence, or you know, whatever brings to the table my identities, then that doesn’t feel good all the time to get that feedback. I think you have to give yourself some space and grace to go back and truly to sit with that and understand instead of being we all want to deflect and be defensive in the moment, as you said, it doesn’t you know, those aren’t folks don’t like to be challenged or you know, put on the spot like that or call to the carpet, you know, publicly a lot of times but sometimes you just have to go back and do ourself work and if you hit a chord or struck a chord and made you feel some kind of way, then you have to sit with that and understand why I in order to make sure that the next encounter doesn’t do that, because it is going to have an impact on somebody in a way that you can’t control. Or maybe if you didn’t mean, it can end up in for me, I’m always conscious, like I work with policies, procedures, it can be human resources, it can be with our General Counsel, or it can be an external, you know, complaint against institution or my office or for something that could have been a conversation for clarity, or to apologize, I’m not above apologizing, right? Or say, I don’t know everything, right. So I use this term expert, a very loosely, right. Like we have credentials that give us access to different spaces. But honestly, saying, I’m a lifelong learner, I don’t mind to be corrected, I don’t mind to be fact checked. I don’t mind to be, you know, reminded or told, like, Hey, you said something, and it didn’t come across the right way. So I can own that, acknowledge it, and make sure I don’t do it again. Yeah,
(JM) 45:47 I love that. Thank you for bringing this human aspect here. Because like, we are humans, right? Like, I will say, I have my own issues, like I have my own, like pitfalls, and like, oh, I shouldn’t have said that. You know, and I’m like, Oh, I totally offended that person. I feel so bad about that. And now I feel a little nervous about addressing it, you know, like that exists in me. But yeah, I think what I really appreciate about our responses here is that the knowledge and the background and the context that you’ve given today, and also recognizing, and also like the political knowledge, the historical knowledge that you’ve given, and knowing all these things, you’re still showing up as yourself as a human and being objective, matter of fact, not scary about addressing these topics. And I think that that’s super important to have to continue, as I mentioned, to address those stereotypes that I’m talking about, that people who don’t support D I think that we are, you know, so I appreciate that. And I wanted to just acknowledge that. Okay, so next question. I’m gonna start delving into takeaways. Next. I know, you’ve mentioned, policymakers, and so forth. I wanted to ask, I know, this is a big question. So you choose how you would like to answer it. But for those policymakers, people in the decision making seat like, what would you like to see out of them right now, given the change that has happened this year? I think
(Dr. KS) 47:03 it’s incumbent I’m speaking, I guess my hiring folks. Right. I don’t work in admissions. But I definitely work across the college, I have a really great relationship with our Vice President of Enrollment Services here. So we can have we just came back from where I was telling, I was at a conference in Seattle last week, and it was with her and her team to talk about the indifferently strategic around making sure that we are an open access institution, right, we are here to be partners and ensuring that the region’s the community here in the region has access to affordable education here at our institution. So we continue to keep doors open, even though we have policies that are potentially set out that could set some of them, right. So I think it’s incumbent on folks to have those conversations or check in with your DNI team, figuring out ways to expand beyond what we see as limitation, like there are ways that we can continue to make sure that our institutions are diverse, like if we have a race based, or race conscious admissions policy or not, right, so depending on where you are, demographically, I think we do have to create space to ensure that we are mirroring like the demographics of our region in terms of our institution. So I think, to not feel like the book is always close, it just kind of gives you an opportunity to be differently creative and innovative, and partner in differently within the community, like it’s going to be incumbent upon us to be out and being active in our recruitment, especially for those in enrollment management, and to not seeing it as a shut door. So I hope that the takeaway from that isn’t that you can’t have you know, students of color, like don’t apply to these institutions like it is going to be prohibitive in terms of a way that you would have had, you know, an advantage in the process in the same way as a legacy person, or if you’re a student athlete, or you know, whatever else, institutions get to determine how they what is going to be these extra points that you give within that system. So yeah, limits one, but it doesn’t, you know, eliminate all of them. And our students are more than our than just their race, right. So there are other ways that you can provide scholarships and opportunities for students to bring their true selves, including their race, to your campus in ways where that one point or not shouldn’t make the difference, or your institution being considered, you know, friendly and open to students, regardless of their racial background differently.
(JM) 49:11 Strategic I like that. Yes. Okay. So my next question is about criticisms. So first off, do you have any, like, you know, critiques that you give about how the AI initiatives have been pushed out? I know, we’ve learned a lot through these past couple of years, right. So any critiques that you’d like to, you know, bring awareness to? And then also, what would be your advice to the like educational leaders to look out for so that they can move forward more authentically and holistically with whatever initiatives that they have to promote like equity and inclusion and belonging in their campuses? Yeah,
(Dr. KS) 49:43 so I think my critique is I think we’ve gotten off track like I think the things that have our attention and focus on like limited opportunities, doing away with policies and that were created to expand opportunities to people who have been denied in the past. We’re working backwards, that I think we’re in a dangerous space like if we continue to do that. So I think we need to be able to challenge even some of the people who are being affected by these decisions that aren’t always at the table. So my challenge is to like, if you are in higher education, if you’re in education in general, we should be everybody, right is who our constituents are, we should be for all students. So we need to be differently critical when decisions are being made that are limited opportunities for some, and especially from an equity standpoint, that’s definitely one of my takeaways in terms of looking forward. I think we’ve gotten back to this place of where folks don’t understand like you, if you’re especially if you’re a DNI, professional in this space, you have to have your elevator speech, you have to know the differences and be able to articulate what is diversity, what is equity, what is inclusion, what is belonging, how they are connected, but they are different, they’re not the same. But when we lump them all together, and people chip away at them, they’re chipping away at the conglomerate, not just one or the other. So we should be able to articulate and promote why they are all needed and necessary and have different roles within our our institutions. But for me, I think in my introduction, I should have said, you asked about philosophy perspective, I tried to be equity minded. And for me, that is very simple. What do people need the tools and resources that they need to be successful, and it’s going to look different for me than it will for you from the next person based on how we arrived, what we have in terms of our experiences and our access to the resources, the things that we have available to us. So equity doesn’t look the same. And that’s where people get, I think, these days, it gets scary, like when you have this zero sum mentality of like, oh, to give that person this is taken away opportunity for me, well, not necessarily, there’s enough resources to go around where you can have what you need from an equity standpoint to be successful in this person have what they need. And it might not be that you need the same thing. And that’s okay. So I think educators and DNI folks need to be able to stand by and stand behind and to continue to challenge and to identify these barriers that are in place that chip away at equity, because especially for me, in the space of community colleges, our students come here differently, our resource, and we have to be able to say like equality and equity aren’t the same. And that’s okay. Right? That’s okay. And they’re going to have different needs, based on their life circumstances. And that’s okay. So we need to be able to give the student a, what they need a student be what they need, and they might not be parity may not be there, but the equity will be and that’s what we should be concerned with. I think if we shift our mind from these things like zero sum, or equality, right and shifted to equity, then folks should be differently comfortable with understanding that we all need different things in order to be successful. And that’s okay.
(JM) 52:44 I love that you said That’s okay, multiple times. Right. And, you know, equity, I think it is that next piece. And I also really appreciated when you said everybody is who our constituents are. Great. Okay, I know what this next question I have. We haven’t touched on this, but just don’t like have a little, you know, a little lip here. It is important, but this conversation was focused more on education. But you know, this is more of a just predictive, it’s not like it’s just like your perspective type of question, which is like, how do you feel the effects from 2020 threes? Affirmative Action ruling, What effects do you feel like it might have from on the pipeline from education to employment? Because we’re not gonna see that right now. But we’re gonna see it later. Well,
(Dr. KS) 53:23 I think students have choices, right. I think part of the early onset and the conversations in the aftermath of the decision being made public was there’s gonna be an influx, especially for black students, lifer, historically, black colleges and universities, college is supposed to be a place of self discovery, like where a lot of our students are coming in with a lot of different challenges. On the front end, we’re not walking into spaces where we already know, we’re gonna feel defeated, right. So taking away this barrier of being excluded or not being supported. Because of your racial background, I think there’s going to be potentially a reach handling students who are interested, especially black students in historically black colleges and universities so that they can have that identity connection. And being in a space where DNI isn’t weaponized against them, or their identity isn’t weaponized against them or taken away opportunities. I do think it’s going to be at the detriment of the diversity of our predominately white institutions, right, I think we should be like most high cultural, most high dimensional spaces where we can learn from people who are different from us, like who wants a cookie cutter experience, right? That’s not why folks are interested in going to college. And that’s definitely not what employers want. They want like globalization is a priority and want folks who can work across different types of team dynamics like that’s where the innovation and the creativity happens, like I don’t know everything, you don’t know everything, but you put a lot of folks together with different experiences and demographics and backgrounds, and education and skill sets and then that’s where that’s what employers want, right? That’s going to spark their next best products. Next best idea and create opportunities where you know, that inclusiveness like in their workplace environment and the teamwork and collaboration across cultures, it’s going to matter like this cultural competency. For me, I like the term cultural humility that happens in those spaces, but it can’t happen. When you look around, you look to your left and looks here, right? And everybody looks just like you or has your same, you know, background experiences, thing, you’re not enriched in that process. So I just hope that students aren’t deterred from the effects of the ruling, to say, Well, hey, like, if like my race alone, like, no, the race alone isn’t what’s going to get you in the door, like your, what you bring to the table in terms of like, your activities in high school, or what you’re doing in the workplace, like to be a well rounded students so that that one point isn’t going to open or close the door, like if it was utilized by that institution in the first place. Because a lot of institutions don’t even have various conscious, you know, admissions policies. So I just hope that people aren’t taking that as a, you know, across the board, that it’s affecting opportunities. And certain institutions or students might have been interested in before that they think now that there’s reason that they can’t, I’m going to tell you to guess continue, like apply anyway, right? Because you have more that you’re bringing to the table than just your race, that is just a part of your identity. And it can enrich that that’s the component of you that can enrich that college culture. But it’s not the only thing that you bring to the table that can enrich that college culture, within yourself in the process. Yeah,
(JM) 56:13 great points. Okay. I love that you mentioned the student as well. Curious if you have anything for the hiring manager, how to be differently strategic, they’re
(Dr. KS) 56:22 already shared. And understanding the differences between D and I having some procedures in place, there’s nothing like that ruling affects admissions for higher education, but not hiring practices at this point in time. So I know here, we make a strong effort to ensure that we have diverse pools, right, we are advertised in our positions in diverse markets. So we’re trying to attract a well rounded pool of applicants. And then your process flows from there, but you need to make sure that you’re doing your due diligence on the front end. For hiring managers, I think for leaders at institutions, especially in higher education, like don’t just pay lip service, right? DNI work is going to look different on different campuses, but you have to have the people there to do the work, you need to provide the resources. And you need to make sure that for me sound policies and procedures in place, because once you have a lot of you know, all these differences, it’s going to be an opportunity, everything isn’t going to be a kumbaya moment, right. So when you have somebody who may be discriminated against or harassed because of a protected class, you need to have a procedure that’s fair, that’s marketed that’s available that folks can see that they can, they’re not afraid to engage in like, there’s no you know, have a strong retaliation policy or zero tolerance policies like around that. So that that can be called out name. And properly, you know, addressed when it does happen, or if it does happen, I hope it never does. But I do think that that’s the hallmark of making sure you have the balance there. Like you know, if you have all of the you know, you have to have resources on both ends of the of the process, from hiring to the employee experience. So hiring managers need to be aware of that. And I think having good relationships with your DNI teams to ensure that, you know, we’re going back and forth, things change, like minute by minute, so we want to be at the forefront of that. So we’re not, you know, apologizing or we’re worried about that, you know, one bad lawsuit that’s going to have an effect on you know, the future of their institution or organization. So I do think we need to be very conscious of not just diversity in this 15 minute training that you do annually. But we’re going to make it so that you can craft a sense of belonging for everybody, right as within your organization, and there starts at hiring, but it goes beyond that, like the partnerships I have, we are strong, because like I said, our enrollment management with our human resources, checking in with, you know, our, you know, Dean’s of students who are supporting students, so just make sure that if you are in these DNR seats, that you’re not sitting in isolation, like you might have a small team, I have a very small team, but we collaborate across the organization, because this isn’t work that we can do by ourselves, nor should we be doing by ourselves.
(JM) 58:49 I love that. Yes. Hence why inclusion, belonging and access is so important so that you can be adaptable to the changing situations. Right? Yeah. So great, great response there. Okay. Also, something I wanted to ask you was about your expertise on non discrimination and title nine. So tell me your intentions behind these policies? And also, is there anything you are shifting in your perspective and or approach that has changed this year in comparison to previous years?
Title IX policies and non-discrimination in higher education
(Dr. KS) 59:15 Yeah, so. I think Title Nine civil rights, that’s my office like, oversees those processes here at the college. So it’s just ensuring that folks are your protected classes are not creating barriers or obstacles, or folks aren’t discriminating against you or harassing you because of them. Alright, so we got we ensure that we are we have a sound investigation process whenever we receive a complaint. So that’s my role in that here at my current institution. And I think my takeaway from that I think, folks think when you hear non discrimination or protected class that we all belong to at least one of them, right? It’s more than just race and gender, right. So it is our here at this institution, your veteran status, your religion, your gender identity, there’s a lot so I think you need to Make sure that you go and take a look at class and make sure that you understand what your institution’s non discrimination policy is, we also have them. And they’re not just limited to race or gender. I think that’s a misconception that people have. And people think that it’s reserved for some people and not others know, everybody belongs to at least one protected class. So that is a something that I’d like to promote here at our institution. And in terms of Title Nine, I think, I along with the rest of the folks who are who live in a title nine world, we’re waiting on the current proposed regulations to be published, right? So we’ve been preempted that there’s changes coming down the pipeline. But that date keeps moving and was like summer of 2023, then we were told October one, and that’s coming on. So a lot of us are kind of holding our breath to say like, what changes are on the horizon, based on that. But we’re currently operating under the regulation that was passed in 2021. But we do have pending regulations that we’re just patiently waiting to see, you know, how we then move forward policy changes that aren’t institutions. And for me, what is going to be some of the highlights of what is the intended changes that we’re going to have separate regulations that talk about Title Nine, in athletics, there’s a lot of conversations happening around the transgender student athlete experience with the non binary student athlete experience across all levels, K through 12. And within higher education and professionally, right, so that is some anticipated changes that we are we’re waiting to see what what the final rule is on that. And then there generally, it’s going to be more encompassing, like Title Nine and 37 words, there is no law was protections of sex and gender based discrimination, but it’s going to be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity. For me, that’s going to be very interesting in ways that but up against need another, our folks rights and protections on the first amendment right. So they’re going to be that’s going to be very interesting to manage. From a title nine perspective, it’s already interesting from a civil rights perspective, and definitely the intersections that it has with first amendment rights or rights for free expression, and how that all comes together. Won’t gel, Well, initially, I think, as we you know, are getting acclimated to the new regulations. And we’re, we’re gonna have to create, we’re gonna have to make a joke because it’s gonna it cuts across the identities of our students and our employees within our institutions.
(JM) 1:02:19 Wow, big things to look forward to and to dissect and strategize around really interesting. I’m curious to see how that’s gonna come out. Okay, any last words of advice you would like to give for those working in college admissions, and or in like student onboarding efforts? In general?
Creating inclusive workplace culture
(Dr. KS) 1:02:35 Yeah, I just want to, I would just encourage folks to continue to be innovative in ways that you work around what we’re perceiving to be as limitations because they’re not always like, just because one door closes, all the doors don’t close. So we just have to be differently strategic and how we’re going to ensure that we’re reaching our students that were recent potential students, and that we’re continuing to have our doors our institutions open and create climates where students are able to thrive and they’re not seeing, you know, those decisions as detriments, or potential barriers to them having a good educational experience.
(JM) 1:03:06 I love that you’re prioritizing the ability to thrive over the attention on the obstacles. Great point there. Okay. Lastly, our signature question here for you what defines an inclusive workplace culture?
(Dr. KS) 1:03:19 Yeah, so for me it is one back down. So breakdown of DNI. So diversity is just the sheer facts and numbers like you can go and run a report like what these are institutional makeup look like from gender, from race, from whatever other you know, demographic information that you are, you are choosing to capture within the data of your institution, the equity piece is like I already shared making sure that folks have what they need individually to be successful. And it’s not equality, and diversity, equality, inclusion, equity inclusion, it’s gonna look a little bit different based on the individual needs. And that’s okay. And inclusion, I think, is where folks feel kind of all wrapped in this sense of belonging, they, you know, morale is the place that they want to go and work they see themselves and comfortable and thriving within their workplace environment. So it is a space where relationship building is encouraged, and opportunities for relationship building are provided. So I think inclusion is a step to make sure that you that’s the retention piece, like if no one is going to say anywhere that they don’t feel welcomed, right, so from students employees, so if you don’t have you can have all the numbers you want in place, you can think you can provide all the equity tools, but if you don’t have a space where people feel that they can come in be their true selves unapologetically, and have a space to thrive and do their work and to do their work in a meaningful way, then I think you’re lacking on the inclusion piece. And that takes effort like from from an institution that doesn’t just happen, you have to be able to create those spaces and those opportunities for relationship building across departments and across areas so that people can thrive in a place that they feel welcomed and that they belong.
(JM) 1:04:47 Great answer I love that you said being able to allow people to do meaningful work and thrive. So thank you again so much for joining me today. I’ve learned so much from you. I feel like I’m gonna like look out different multiple different titles out Enter this, enter. So thank you so much for giving us the starting points. And thank you again for being here today.
(Dr. KS) 1:05:05 pleasures mine. Thank you very much for the opportunity looks. I don’t know how you found me. I’m happy you did. I enjoyed our conversation. And like I said, once again, thank you for the opportunity to always happy to talk about DNI and promote the great work that tyre and work can be isolating work, but it’s very meaningful work and it’s necessary work. So I do encourage people who are engaged were thinking about it to stay the course.
(JM) 1:05:26 Thank you for joining us today. As we continue to explore how we can enable diversity at work, follow us and get notified of our latest episodes. Also, we want to hear from you. Please like rate and review us on your podcast app or wherever you’re listening in. If you want to contact us, please visit diverseek.com – that is d i v e r s e e k.com This episode was produced by Madhu Nair, edited by Cansin Dalak, researched by JOLENE MEI, music composed by Nicholas Lang and our production team includes Keisha Williams, Prashant Balbhar and Maria Querina. I am your host JOLENE MEI and you have been listening to DIVERSEEK.