Chief Diversity Officer
Embracing introversion as a strength
Aliah Berman (AB) 0:02 And it made me realize that there was nothing wrong with me, I always grew up thinking that because I tended to process things and listen really well and be, you know, really empathetic and like to go deep in conversation and valued authenticity so much. And there were all these little quirks that society didn’t seem to value about me that made me think that there was something wrong. And I didn’t really like it about myself and I didn’t, you know, see value, because those weren’t the traits that were being talked about in terms of like leadership, you know, skills or abilities. And so I, you know, in reading these books that helped me understand like, what my superpowers were, and how effective of a leader and a colleague and a friend, you know, and a parent so that I could be, and the value of some of these like introverted tendencies, and so truly was, and still is life changing for me and being able to understand it and not looking at introversion as something that’s negative, but owning up to it. And I’m extremely proud of, you know, being an introvert and what that means. And I think that the strengths that I have are all rooted in my introversion and my ability to be a really effective leader is because of you know, those qualities and once I understood the value in those things, I was really able to like step into that power.
Introversion and extraversion in the workplace
Jolene Mei (JM) 1:21 Hello, everyone. This is JOLENE MEI, your host for the diversity podcast, where we talk with real people doing real work in the diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging space. If you want to explore what people are doing right, what positive impacts are happening or even how positive changes can be done. You’re in the right place. We welcome you to join us.
We welcome you to join us. Today we have AB with us. Aliah is the Global Chief Diversity Officer at TBWA worldwide. Aliah is passionate about the DEI body of work in and of itself, always feeling that this work has been aligned with her soul. And her role as global chief diversity officer She leads the vision strategy and execution of TBWA is diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. Aliah is instrumental and engaged in a variety of dei initiatives serving on the board for tempo, an organization focused on empowering women to achieve and sustain leadership roles, and on the advisory board for Marquette University’s Institute for Women’s Leadership. Also, Aliah is great at doing different character voices, being able to make children laugh when she reads them a book and interprets the characters. And lastly, although many might assume she is an extrovert, she is a proud introvert. And please note, all statements made by Aliah during the podcast are solely her own and do not express the views or opinions of her employer. And without further ado, welcome, welcome, Alia, happy to have you.
AB 2:48 Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here with you today.
JM 2:51 Same I’m excited for today’s topic, not gonna lie, I’m a little biased, because we will be talking about introversion and extraversion. But to start us off, tell us more about yourself. And feel free to share what you’re personally excited to talk about today, too.
AB 3:03 So as you mentioned, I am a D and I leader, and I’ve been doing the work for over a decade now. I guess so a little bit about me personally, as I have three kids and their personalities, which are so different. And there are a lens on the world, you know, which is all very different from each other, despite, you know, being in the same environment is something that I find so interesting, and it helps to inform my work and how, you know, I think about it in the workplace. As you mentioned, I’m an introvert, but I function in a role that requires extroverted tendencies, like lots of public speaking and lots of, you know, leading meetings and requires me to be around large groups of people and be on all the time. And I think a lot of people assume that because I, you know, appear to be comfortable in that capacity that I’m extroverted. But I always surprise them when I say I’m introverted. And I’ve spent a lot of time over the last several years reading books about introversion and extraversion. And that’s sort of by accident, but it’s something that I’m really passionate about. So I’m super excited to get, you know, into the discussion and talk a bit more about that. And to look at it from the perspective of No, it’s a part of the diversity work that I do. Yeah,
JM 4:20 I also personally, really relate to what you said, Because oftentimes, people are surprised when they hear I’m actually introverted, because I do love people. I love interacting with people, but I just get tired. Like, I’m like, yeah, and then when I get home, I’m like, Oh, my God, I’m so tired. I don’t know if you feel that as well. Absolutely. I
AB 4:38 mean, yeah, I need time. And I’m sure you know, we’ll dig into it in a little bit. But I need time to process and to be able to, you know, be alone with my own thoughts. So, you know, even though I love being around people, and I’m very social, I think which is people assume that if you’re introverted, you’re not, you know, social at all, or you don’t like being around people and that couldn’t be further from the truth. But in order to recharge Should I need to, you know, have time alone where I can process things. And that’s what gives me energy.
JM 5:05 Yeah, totally relate to that. 100%. So I also appreciated you saying about that, you know, introversion and extraversion, it’s just about different types of people. And it is part of the work that we’re doing in Di. So with that, let’s go ahead and start with some definitions. How do you define introversion and extraversion? And you also mentioned some assumptions. So feel free to dive into that aspect as well. Yeah. So
AB 5:28 first, I would start by saying that, you know, as we discuss tendencies around introversion and extraversion, that these in many ways are generalization. So it doesn’t mean that you know, if you identify as an introvert that all of these things are going to apply to you, or, you know, vice versa for extroverts. It’s just that these are tendencies that show up and people who identify largely as extroverts are largely as introverts. So I just want to start by saying that, and, you know, it’s all a spectrum. So, you know, not everybody has all the tendencies of an introvert, you also have traits of extroverts, and vice versa. And there’s also the term ambivert, which I know people are familiar with, as well. And that is, I think people who identify as ambiverts feel like they’re oftentimes express themselves and, you know, extroverted ways or an introverted ways, and it just varies. And so they feel like they’re, you know, on both sides of the spectrum. And all of that is right. I think the reason why we talk about introversion and extraversion is because oftentimes people tend to, you know, tip the scales more so in one direction over another. But again, all of the traits that we typically associate with either or aren’t going to apply to everybody all the time. But having said that, introversion and extraversion relate to where we get our energy from and how we recharge. So you know, like we were just talking about a second ago, introverts may like to be social and be around other people. But in order to recharge, they need time to be alone and to process and that’s where they get their energy from, like they recharge and restore by being alone. But extroverts on the other hand recharge, and they get energy from being around people. So that stimulation of being around other people and the outside world is how they recharge, and replenish their energy levels. And there’s a lot of research around this, and I’m no expert. But research shows that how introverted or extroverted you are, is really relative to your sensitivity to the environment. So introverts are really highly sensitive to the external environment and all of the things around them. And extroverts are much less sensitive to the external environment.
JM 7:38 Okay, so I really appreciated that you talked about where we gather energy. And it’s kind of interesting, because at least for me, I found that that kind of changed as I grew. And as I aged, so now I feel like I get a lot of my energy internally, whereas prior, I’d say like, maybe in college, I felt like I was more of an ambivert. So it’s kind of interesting. Personally, I’m just sharing that I wonder if any listeners also might relate to that. But I did want to bring up a different concept that I think is really interesting, which is the extrovert ideal. So can you tell us a little bit more about that?
AB 8:12 So we live and work in a society that places high value on extroverted tendencies, like being high energy and you know, being outspoken and the first one to you know, to speak. I think our society and corporate culture have this extraversion bias, where qualities like putting yourself out there are highly valued. And because of this, we see things like extroverts, often being you know, promoted first or getting more attention from leadership than introverts do. Introverts are less likely than extroverts to be groomed for leadership positions, because they’re seen as you know, less engaging, less charismatic, less, you know, the traditional characteristics of, of leadership, you know, tendencies, much of our public life is dominated by extroverts. And even like school classrooms are increasingly designed to reflect that environment. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the book quiet by Susan Cain, but I read it years ago, and it’s just an incredible book that explains just the different brain processes of introverts and extroverts and how we’re wired differently and how that leads, you know, to us showing up differently in the world and how we interact and engage with people. And she talked a lot about how, you know, the school environment is really has an extroverted bias because they’re requiring kids to work in groups. And, you know, if your kid isn’t the, you know, child that’s extremely social and wanting to go to tons of parties and liking that level of stimulation. You know, we’re often taught to believe that there’s something wrong with the kid and we’re pushing them, you know, to behave in ways that are traditionally associated with extroverts. So, we start to see how we’re socialized towards those tendencies early on. And then when you know, extroverts are comfortable If interjecting their ideas and their thoughts are often, you know, leaning to the forefront during decision making. And so oftentimes we, you know, don’t get the benefit of seeing leadership demonstrated through, you know, introverted qualities,
JM 10:15 you bring up really great points, because I think I remember when I was in school, it was said that actually, I was quite lucky because I had a great teacher that said that I had leadership qualities, and I was like I do, I was like, but in my head, I was not thinking and not realizing that I had attributed these extroverted, like attributes to being a leader. And then later on in life, when I became like, a department leader, I was having like a crisis of like, Oh, my God, what is being a leader me? So, yeah, that’s just something I personally struggled with. And now I’m like, Oh, okay. That’s what it means. So I think that it’s a good next question I have for you is like, what are some assumptions versus reality of being an introvert in the workplace?
AB 11:01 Yeah. So people often equate introversion with shyness, and they are not the same thing. You can be not shy at all, and still be an introvert people often think that if you’re introverted, that means that you’re socially awkward, or you don’t like people or you’re not charismatic, you don’t like to talk, you’re aloof. And none of those things are, you know, our true, introversion does not equate any of those things at all. Also, with extroverts, people sometimes will think that they’re not very thoughtful, or they don’t think before speaking, you know, they’re shallow, bad listeners, or that they don’t like to be alone. And that’s not the case at all, either. So I think we need to be very, very careful about some of these, you know, assumptions about what it means to be introverted or extroverted. One of the reasons I think it’s so important is just hearing you talk about, you know, your own sort of like self doubt around whether or not you truly, you know, could be a word, that leader, if anything, I think understanding yourself first and the context of introversion and extraversion is so important. I mean, I can’t remember how I ended up, you know, reading Susan Kane’s book, but after I read it, it was a life changing for me. And this was probably like, you know, six, maybe seven years ago, and I ended up reading a number of books after that. And it made me realize that there was nothing wrong with me, I always grew up thinking that because I tended to process things and listen really well and be, you know, really empathetic, and like to go deep in conversation and valued authenticity so much. And there were all of these little quirks that society didn’t seem to value about me, that made me think that there was something wrong. And I didn’t really like it about myself, and I didn’t, you know, see value, because those weren’t the traits that were being talked about in terms of like leadership, you know, skills or abilities. And so, reading the book, for me was life changing, because number one, it made me feel like, oh, there’s a big part of the population that are introverted, and that are having some of the same challenges as I am. And so, you know, I’m not alone and feeling like this. Number two, I’m not odd. And it’s not that you don’t belong places, because, you know, I tend to show up differently than what people consider to be the norm. And number three, I, you know, in reading these books that helped me understand like what my superpowers were, and how effective of a leader and a colleague and a friend, you know, and a parent so that I could be, and the value of some of these like introverted tendencies, and so truly was and still is life changing for me, and being able to understand it and not looking at introversion as something that’s negative, but owning up to it. And I’m extremely proud of, you know, being an introvert and what that means. And I think that the strengths that I have are all rooted in my introversion, and my ability to be a really effective leader is because of, you know, those qualities. And once I understood the value in those things, I was really able to like step into that power.
Introversion, leadership, and energy management
JM 13:57 While there was so much you said that I feel like it filled a part of me because I really relate it to a lot of the things that you said, you know, I did mention self doubt and self doubt was something that I was really struggling with. Like I mentioned, when I was having like an identity crisis with being a leader. I was like, oh my god, I’m supposed to be this right? But I’m struggling doing that thing, you know, and it’s funny you bring up quiet because actually, I I started reading quiet a while ago. And then I was like, I can’t do this. I need it as an audiobook. First couple pages and chapters that I read, I was like, Oh my gosh, this makes sense. Like that. I shouldn’t feel bad for this because I truly, like have strength in like stopping and thinking and doing a lot of introspection. And I guess I like to think of myself as the situational deep conversationalist. Where like I have deep conversations with people like only in certain situations, and after that I kind of like fly away. They never see me again. But yeah, I just appreciated what you said about you know, finding your own strengths as a leader and where that is rooted within yourself, so I thought that was great to hear from you. And I think you kind of started mentioning it, but wanted to make sure I give it space here is, how did you see introversion showing up for you? And how has your experience been like being an introverted leader as well, I
AB 15:15 would say it’s been a learning lesson. And the reason why is because it’s like, I equate leadership in many ways to parenting. Because you really, when you’re parenting, or when you serve as a leader, the people you know, who you are responsible for, in many ways, hold a mirror up to you, and help you better understand yourself in the context of, you know, your interactions with them, and what they tell you they need, and you know, what they’re getting from you or not getting from you. And, you know, the ways in which I’ve learned that my intuition has been so valuable for my kids. And for those that I lead is, you know, I’m often told that I’m a really good listener, which I never placed a lot of value on before. But I think today with leaders, I think people get the wrong idea, or even memo about what leadership means and think that they have to be sort of dictatorial, and tell people what to do. And I really believe that good leadership is about, you know, the, like partnership between people. And that, as a leader, my role is really to kind of, you know, remove the barriers or interference from people being able to do their best and be at their best when they’re at work. And that requires, like really good listening, really good partnership, being open to hearing other’s thoughts and ideas, and, you know, being collaborative, like those are all, you know, traits of introversion that are super important, you know, for leadership, I also listen before I talk, so I tend to give people space for them to think through and process and problem solve, you know, first before jumping in, I’m often told that I’m really thoughtful, and that when I talk, it’s because I’ve thought of something thoroughly in my mind, and you know, what my thoughts are really considered. And I’m doing that from a point of thinking about it from a number of sort of like lenses, and I give myself time to process things and think you know, deeply about it, rather than being really reactive, or you know, impulsive. So it’s been really valuable, you know, in those ways, I think I’ve had to what I’ve had to learn is for introverts, they often experienced the world through their own sort of like, they have a very imaginative inner dialogue in their head, and lots of what is going on, you know, is happening inside, and they’re not always communicating or reflecting that externally. And so I’ve had to learn to get out of my head and to communicate out loud more often than I than I think I need to because sometimes they assume that people are following or that they know what I’m thinking. But introverts can, you know, oftentimes, like, not be as verbally expressive, and communicate, you know, as much as extroverts do. And so I have to remind myself to do that, especially when I see people, you know, are a little confused, or they’re not quite sure the direction I’m headed. So I just have to remind myself to communicate more than I think, you know, that I would need in order to make sure that people are all on the same page. I’ve also learned about myself, and this is very true to introverts, that introverts have a much harder time pulling out of something if they’re intensely focused on it. And if they’re interrupted, they have a harder time and extroverts like focusing again, on that project. It’s actually upsetting to introverts if you’re interrupted, because you’re it’s in such deep focus, that it’s upsetting, you know, to be pulled out of that focus, because it’s really hard to get back into it once you’ve been pulled out. Whereas extroverts can easily you know, go in between disruption and focus and disruption and focus, etc. So I’ve had to, like really work on that. And I think, most importantly, I’ve had to learn how to manage my energy, you know, especially when you’re leading other people that can be incredibly challenging for introverts who sort of take on the like, emotions, the feelings because you’re, you know, listening so intently to people. And it’s for introverts that can be really overstimulating. And so I’ve had to learn how to preserve necessary alone time for myself, and also give myself blocks of time to focus and to work on projects, which isn’t always easy when you’re, you know, in a leadership capacity and when there are people who are knocking on your door, your virtual door throughout the day, but I really prioritize that because I know how challenging it is for me to you know, refocus once I’ve been pulled out of something. So really learning how to manage my energy, learning how to make sure I’m communicating out loud with people, and then you know, learning how to manage time in a way that I have uninterrupted time to focus on things.
Managing introverts and extroverts in the workplace
JM 19:50 You know, you’ve brought up really awesome examples. I too, like a deep level that I didn’t even consider so I really appreciate that. So with that in mind, I wanted to ask Has there been something that a manager that you’ve had has given you, that you feel like really brought you access to leverage those strengths that you had?
AB 20:10 You know, it’s funny, I think that yes, recently, but that’s because I’ve been able to identify specifically what I need in order to be successful. And I’ve communicated that to them. You know, like, in the past, I have had, like, such insecurity about the way I needed to work. And, you know, that seemed to be different from my peers. And I couldn’t pinpoint precisely what it was that I needed in order to, you know, to feel like I was at my best and to feel like I was being supported. But once I understood myself better through the context of being introverted, and what that necessitated, you know, for me to be able to work, like, effectively, I was able to communicate that to leaders and say, Hey, I need a bit more time to process this, let me think about it and get back with you. And to be okay with being able to do that. And I’d come back with a much better more informed thought, than if I’m put on the spot. Or, you know, I was able to say, like, Hey, what is the agenda gonna look like for this meeting? So I have an opportunity to think through a few minutes before the meeting, you know, how I want to contribute to the meeting. So I was able to ask for those things. Once I understood it. Again, it’s why I advocate so strongly for people to understand like themselves in terms of introversion extroversion, because it helps you understand like, Okay, how do I need to work? What does it take, for me to feel supported to be effective, you know, to position myself for success? And then to be able to communicate that stuff to your leaders?
JM 21:38 Yeah, I really liked that. I mean, I think it shows the self work that you’ve done as well. And it’s kind of interesting, because I feel like I’m still on that journey of like, finding, okay, like, what do I need, so that I can be successful, or put myself in the best spot possible so that I can be as efficient do the things I need to do? And then the next step of advocating for it, I love that you brought that to the equation as well. I did want to flip the perspective here. And I wanted to ask for you as somebody who’s managed, you know,
AB 22:03 how has management like what management strategies have you tried to implement or offer to your direct reports, who are maybe from different like attribute spectrum type things between introversion and extraversion, when I think about extroverts, for example, and what they might need, I’ve learned how to help them figure out ways to manage their energy with others outside of myself, that will help them feel like they’re getting the kind of stimulation and group energy that they need. So for example, you know, I’ll advise them sometimes to schedule regular brainstorming sessions, or encourage them to engage with other people or other departments is needed. And that is really effective for people who, you know, want to share ideas and bounce things off of other people and have an environment where you don’t have to have these like, you know, perfectly baked ideas, and they just won’t be able to engage with other people because that social interaction is so needed. So I’ll you know, direct them to do that. Or, you know, I’ve noticed that oftentimes, extroverts might want to explain, you know, every detail of their plan, you know, or ideas immediately, when in meetings, so, I’ll acknowledge their great ideas in front of their peers, but you know, without allowing their enthusiasm to overtake the meeting, and not give others the opportunity to contribute. You know, I also know that for extroverts, they’re thinking and processing out loud, and because of their enthusiasm and energy don’t want to contribute to the conversations as thoughts are coming up, they sometimes will, you know, will interrupt or talk over people, not with the intent to be, you know, rude, but because again, it’s really more about their enthusiasm. So I’ve learned to sort of sort of gently curtail their interruptions. I also know that extroverts often will actively seek out like praise or status. And so I’ve been better about making sure to offer that when needed for introverts, specifically, and this is easier because obviously, someone who has those tendencies I know what types of things like helped me in the workplace, but giving people an agenda in advance of a meeting. So they have time to process the information, think about it before coming to the meeting, because it is a bit harder for them to think on the spot, telling them before meetings that you know, I would like their contribution and in what ways so that they are able to come prepared and don’t feel like they’re taken off guard, sometimes just specifically calling on them during meetings to give them an opportunity to share their thoughts because introverts don’t like to be interrupted and don’t often interrupt other people. And so if there’s not a natural break in the conversation, they sometimes won’t even have an opportunity to share what they’re thinking and so making sure that there’s space for them to do that. And then also, I think a really important one is providing an opportunity after meetings or, you know, other brainstorming sessions to provide for them to provide follow up with their feedback. So those are tactics that have been incredibly I think valuable and supporting you know, Both introverts and extroverts.
Workplace expectations and communication styles
JM 25:06 Hello, listeners, time for a quick break to give your brain a quick rest. If you have not done so already and would like to support our mission, please follow our podcast, leave a review, or share this episode with someone you think would enjoy it. Thank you so much for listening in. And let’s get back to the conversation. Those are really great and specific. And I love that they’re very interaction focused, and not only like interaction focus, but also I could see how they could amount to collaboration, opportunities to share, like, you know, strengths as well. So I thought that was really, really helpful. And talking about interaction. I did want to talk a little bit more about meetings, because this is the next part that I’m super interested to get into the nitty gritty about, I know you already actually offered some tactics there. But first to start us off on this one, like, what expectations or unwritten rules do you think that we have in the workplace? Maybe it’s traditional that we’re just like, Oh, we’ve done always done it this way, and meetings, but what expectations are unwritten rules? Do you think maybe we should reexamine? Based on the topic that we’re talking about today? Well,
AB 26:11 I’ll talk about this in terms of additional suggestions for what our mindset should be, like, you know, in meetings, or in making sure that we are inclusive of different, you know, tendencies and how people show up in the workplace. So, I think it’s important to know, and again, you know, just going back to what I said at the beginning of that a lot of these are generalizations, um, but they tend to be true, you know, for people who who are either introverted or extroverted. But introverts, you know, they need time to process and so they may not respond to something right away. But I think it’s really important for people to understand that that doesn’t mean that they’re not engaged, or that they even agree with what’s being said. So they need an opportunity to think through and to process sometimes before responding. I think in meetings, you know, it’s important to know that they’re not always going to be the first or even second or third to speak because, you know, they need their thoughts to be fully baked. Before, you know, they share that with the rest of the people in the meeting. And so just understanding that it’s not that someone is disengaged or apathetic, but that they might need additional time just to think things through before they actually verbalize like, what’s in their head. They take others thoughts into consideration, I think it’s an incredibly useful thing about introverts is that they are not just thinking about what they want to say. But they’re also considering all the things that are being said, at any given time. And then they’re taking that into consideration when they’re thinking through how they want to respond to something. I also think that, you know, as we talked a little bit about before, they really prioritize depth and authenticity, in interactions, and even relationships, and are a bit uncomfortable with small talk. So if an introvert isn’t in a conversation and contributing to the small talk, it’s because their brains tend to want to go deeper, you know, with conversation. And so I think that those things are really important to have in mind when you’re going into spaces where you have a number of, you know, people that are going to show up very differently, because if we’re going into it with the assumption that the loudest person, the person who is speaking first, the most vocal, who’s showing, you know, energy, that doesn’t necessarily mean that that person’s ideas are better, or that that’s the way that leaders show up, I think we have to keep in mind that they’re just different ways of being for introverts and extroverts. And that if you go into any sort of like corporate meeting or environment or setting with that in mind, then you’re focusing more on the substance of the person’s contributions versus their style. And I would say for extroverts, as I mentioned before, they process their thoughts by talking so often that they’re first to speak and don’t need to have fully formed ideas to contribute. That can be great because it can enhance like brainstorming and improve creativity. They also are able to express feelings and facilitate communication and dialogue easily. They’re comfortable championing creative ideas and quickly moving ideas into action. They’re comfortable, you know, with small talk, they keep things lively and energetic. I think what’s great about all of these tendencies is that they really balance each other out, you know, that there’s no one tendency that you want to have, it’s really that there’s a great balance, you know, among the different tendencies that extroverts and introverts display that we really need to be on the lookout for.
JM 29:26 Great, great points. Okay, last question I have on meetings. This is not for the manager, it’s for the colleagues or like the entry level or whoever it is, that is in the meeting, who is doing the interaction, that who are extroverts, introverts, ambiverts they but they want to be more inclusive of conversation, but maybe they don’t know exactly how do you have any tips for them so that they can be mindful and still play to their strengths, but also listen to those with different attributes.
AB 29:55 I think just being mindful of all of these things, you know, like if you are are introverted being mindful that, you know, you have to be careful about over analyzing things and not jumping into a conversation to share ideas until you feel like they’re fully formed because you sometimes miss out on the opportunity contribute at all. And I think it’s important to know like, Okay, if that’s my tendency, how can I either ask questions or be okay with putting a thought or an idea out there, and allowing somebody else in the meeting to flush out that idea or thought, I think a big part of it is just being aware and mindful of how you might show up so that you don’t inhibit yourself, by not participating in the conversation, you might be in your head, have a million ideas and thoughts and then be super charged about what’s happening. But if you aren’t able to express that, you know, or to verbalize that, then no one ever knows. So I think for introverts really important to make sure that you don’t feel like you’re able to say things perfectly, or that your ideas have to be fully formed before you start to contribute. And remind yourself that even if you feel like you’ve communicated, that your tendency might be to limit some of that communication, and to be a bit more reserved, and so to over communicate your points of people, you know, for extroverts, just be mindful of your enthusiasm, you know, taking over or interrupting people, and also being able to say to others, like, look, I noticed that, you know, you haven’t had a chance to contribute, do you have any thoughts or reactions to what is being said, and being able to invite colleagues into the conversation? I’ve seen a number of people at different levels who have done that beautifully, they will find the pause in the conversation, or they will create it themselves and say, I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. Or if you want to give it a moment, like, can we come back to you to give someone a couple minutes to process or to think through so that they can later contribute? Like I said, I’ve seen a number of people, whether they’re a leader or their junior, do that really, really well? Yeah, actually,
JM 31:55 as you mentioned that I could think of a couple times that I’ve witnessed that as well. And I was like, Oh, that was great, you know? Okay, so I also wanted to bring professional development into the conversation, too, we mentioned a little bit earlier, but wanted to ask me to make sure it’s given space that Do you have any prospective stretches that you’d like to give to this conversation, when we are considering actions that identify someone as a candidate for promotion.
AB 32:17 As Imentioned before, I think it’s really important to look at substance over style, you know, like, really looking beyond just the surface level ways that people are demonstrating leadership, you know, through, like how a person you know, sounds or like the loudness of their voice or the authority with which they carry themselves versus what people are able to get out of other people. You know, I’ve seen incredible introverted leader leaders who have a lot of confidence, and a lot of professionalism. But it’s also quiet in a way like they they’re able to give space and a platform to others to be at their very best. And I think introverted leaders do that really well. And so I think, you know, when you’re looking at leadership qualities, it’s what are people able to bring out in others, and to focus on the substance of what they’re doing versus like the style of how they portray that leadership?
JM 33:15 Great points there, I appreciate it, that substance versus style that was really good to bring to the conversation. And then on the other side, for the person who may be put in the leadership position or wants to grow, but maybe experiencing impostor syndrome. You know, just to start us off on that point, like, how have you seen or how do you think impostor syndrome shows up differently? For those who are more extroverted or more introverted? Just kind of curious about that? Yeah,
AB 33:43 I think that’s a great question. And I’m not sure you know, if there’s a difference, I mean, and I’m just sort of, you know, hypothesizing here. But I wonder for introverts, if it’s, you become more reserved, and more measured in what you say, for fear of looking like you don’t know what you’re talking about, or not having like, a completely comprehensive viewpoint on something. Whereas for extroverts, it may be overcompensating in terms of demonstrating all that you think, you know, you know, and again, these are just sort of guesses here, I think it really depends on the person. But kind of going back to your question about if you’re a leader, and some potential like tactics or things to help you in that capacity for introverted leaders. And again, these are things that that I’ve had to learn over time to do that have been really helpful is to host office hours, number one, because, again, oftentimes we tend to like hunker down in our own minds in our own worlds and not always know what is happening outside of us. And so I think it’s really important to create intentional spaces to understand the sentiment or what’s happening outside of you. So I’ve often hosted Office Hours which had been just really valuable, and helped me to understand the perspective or the general sentiment of the team. And also, as I mentioned before, over communicate over communicate over communicate. Introverts, you know, often feel as though the amount of thinking that they have done on something is equal in parts to how they’re expressing that outwardly, which usually isn’t the case. And so making sure that you’re communicating often and very clearly for people, I think it’s really important to know your team to know what their tendencies are, and how you can solicit feedback from them in ways that make them feel comfortable and included, how you get the best out of them, and meetings and how you challenge them in ways that are appropriate based on like their tendencies and their needs. If you are managing an extrovert, knowing that it’s important to explicitly communicate praise, and not assume that your team members know how you feel about their work. And then for introverts, again, just asking lots of questions, and because that is what helps to fuel dialogue. Because, again, introverts are they have a very creative interplay and dialogue that’s going on in their head that others aren’t always privy to. For extroverted leaders, I would say, it’s really important to help champion and advocate on behalf of team members, especially if you have people that are introverted, really understanding those team members and asking them questions understanding like how do you like to receive feedback? How do you like to give it, what’s going to be most helpful to you in meetings in order to make sure that your voice is heard, and identifying opportunities to help make them visible, because they may not always be the first person to vocalize like what they want or what they need, really trying hard to listen in to listen first before you know talking, and to pay attention to what someone is saying, versus sort of like waiting, you know, so that you can make your point. And that’s probably actually important for all leaders. But I’d say for every leader, whether you are introverted or extroverted, you know, seeking to understand people being really open and curious about people, again, gathering preferences and understanding, you know, what type of employee you have, and how best to, you know, make them feel included based on their tendencies, and then encouraging feedback from people, you know, often all the time.
Advocacy, self-advocacy, and personal growth for introverts
JM 37:21 Yeah, those are great points. I love the specifics that you’ve been giving today. So kudos to you for that. Okay, this question. I feel like for me, I can see myself in this situation, this next question has to do with advocacy. I think as an introvert, you know, there’s times that I’m like, Okay, I need to advocate for myself on this. And it might be like one of those situations that are super uncomfortable, that I’m like hyping myself up for because again, an internal creative dialogue that I’m like, what if it goes this way? What if it goes that way? And I really do think this affects a lot of introverts. So I wanted to ask you and your experience and what you’ve maybe tried and succeeded at like, do you have maybe like three tips you’d give to the introvert who’s like, you know, maybe like ruminating over this, that they need to advocate? Yes. So
AB 38:03 I would first say that, and this is funny, because this is what I say to my kids, like every day, but I’m like, if you don’t ask the answer is always no. And I think that’s just a really important thing to always keep in mind that your chances of getting what you want, you’re always going to be zero, unless you advocate that’s just the way of the world and those who advocate for themselves, get what they want much more often than those who don’t. And for me, it was actually like life experiences of watching others who are more vocal, and who had the ability to ask for what they want. Whereas I was like waiting for somebody to notice me. And it just wouldn’t happen. And so I had to learn the hard way of being passed up for a number of like, opportunities and getting access to things to really understand that if you don’t ask the answer is always no. So I think keeping that in mind is really, really critical. Whenever there’s something that you want is to remind yourself of that and to say it many, many, many times a day. Second, I think surround yourself or find people who want the best for you who care about you, and who seem to advocate strongly for themselves, and ask for advice and feedback on how to do that. And people always say, and it sounds so cheesy, but you should have your own personal board of directors. And I do think that that’s really important. That doesn’t mean that you need to have a circle of people that are all CEOs or, you know, executive leaders, I think it means finding people who can help you understand what your strengths are, where your value is, and help you figure out how to communicate that in a way so that you can get what you want. And then third, I would say not to focus so much on you as an individual or you personally, but what are the things that you have that can contribute or provide value to what you’re looking for? So if you’re trying to advocate for a promotion or more senior level role, rather than focusing on yourself personally, what are the skills that you have or what are the proof points of you know, past work? that you’ve done that can actually be an advantage for the role. And think of it that way. What is the skill? What is the contribution that you can provide? That will help advance the position versus saying, Am I worth it from a personal perspective? Because I think that’s often what trips people up. But yeah, I mean, if you’re able to have people rally around you and say, This is what I want. And actually, that’s probably the most important thing is to be able to go outside of yourself and to ask for help. And I think for a lot of introverts, that’s really difficult, because we tend to want to do things on our own. And it’s harder for us to go outside of ourselves to say to other people, like, this is what I want, and how do I get there. But it’s absolutely critical. Like nobody meets their goals or gets too high success in life without having others who help advocate and champion them. And so I think being able to ask for that support, first is critical, and the people who care about you and who want to see you succeed, they won’t hesitate and saying to you, here’s how you can communicate this. And I’m able to do that with a number of people to have a really solid story about why your skill set can be of huge value or service to whatever you’re trying to get, they’ll easily be able to help you come up with a response to that, again,
JM 41:15 great specific points there. And when you were talking about that, I’m like, huh, I’ve actually had a couple of my own people that I’m like, You’re my accountability, buddy. Okay. So yeah, that’s what was brought to my mind. Okay, another question. Last one on this topic that I’m super curious to hear from you two parts. One is, what have you done recently to honor your own introversion? And secondly, what are you doing to honor someone else’s different attribute whether that is different or similar to yours?
Prioritizing self-care and team dynamics as a introverted leader
AB 41:45 Oh, it’s great. Well, I would say, I got sort of caught up over the last, honestly, probably like two and a half to three years since I’ve been in my role as the chief diversity officer for TWA, where I felt like my time had to be, or I had to sort of buckle to the demands that everybody else had on me. And so whether it was a meeting that people were saying were urgent that I needed to attend, or whether it was an employee that needed an extra hour of my time, that week, or whether it was attending meetings where where I needed to be present for the full two hours, or whatever that may be, I sort of like was being dragged around by the demands that other people had on me and my schedule, and it wasn’t sustainable, it isn’t sustainable. And I’ve gotten a lot better over the last few months of putting blocks of time on my calendar, either. If it’s like early in the morning, at the end of the day, the middle of the day, whatever it is, or certain parts of the week, where I know I’m going to need that break, and putting that time on my calendar and sticking to it and not allowing any obligation unless it’s an emergency to interfere with that time. And that’s been essential for me, because I have a really tough time, just shifting gears going from one meeting to the next and not having the opportunity to really thoughtfully think through things and process. Like that’s just not the way I can work at my best I ended up you know, if I’m moving from meeting to meeting to meeting from 6am till 6pm, I will drop the ball on things because I need an opportunity to just sit back to breathe to reflect. And I’ve gotten a lot better over the last few months of not only telling myself that it’s okay, but saying it’s absolutely necessary for me to not have back to back to back to back meetings with no brakes built in during the day for me to allow myself to restore and replenish my energy level so that I am better. And you know, and good at the next succession of meeting. So I’ve gotten a lot better about that. When I first started doing it a few months ago, I always felt really guilty, like, oh, I should be in this meeting, or I should have stayed or I should have said yes, I can give some of my time. And I really firmly believe now that I’m 1000 times better when I give myself a little bit of breathing room and space. I just think better, I’m quicker on my feet, I can make faster, more effective decisions. And I don’t need to feel like I’m busy, busy, busy, busy busy every minute of the day. So I would say that’s how I’ve really honored my introversion. I’ve even tried to do that at home personally, which is incredibly difficult with three kids but reminding myself not to feel guilty if I take a half hour on the weekend for myself without always needing to do something for one of my kids or you know my husband, but really allowing myself some time alone on the weekends so that I’m just the time I spend with them is more quality time versus quantity. And then how have I helped others who have been different for me. I think I tried to be especially just given the nature of my work since I’m in di work and focused on inclusion is trying to always lead from the space of how do I think about the needs of the people around on me, and I have team members and manage people that are very extroverted. And I’m constantly asking them what they need from me, is there more of something that I can do in order to support them, you know, being mindful of setting up like team meetings and, you know, social activities that will help re energize them because they need to feel connected to a group of people and trying to push myself a little bit outside of my comfort zone, to do those things with them versus kind of going in my shell, which is my safe place, you know, my comfortable place. So I try to make sure that there’s a good balance of how do I make sure I’m meeting the needs of the introverts, you know, in my team, and then how do I make sure that the extroverts are also getting what they need from a social interaction and, and team effort perspective?
Inclusive workplace culture and introversion
JM 45:44 I love that when you mentioned your shell like your safe place, I was like, Yep, I understand that.
AB 45:49 That’s my, that’s my instinct. That’s where I always sort of default to and I have to remind myself not to do that.
JM 45:54 I know, I know it for me, there’s this like, sometimes I also overexert myself. I’m like, I should see people. And then so I set up all these Hangouts, and then I get actually overexert myself. And I’m like, Okay, I don’t want to do anything. But I was like, Okay, no, no, no, we need to find the balance, you know. So that happens, you know, it’s fine. It’s part of humanity. Okay, last question for today. Thank you so much, by the way for, for all this awesome knowledge that you’ve given us today. Last question for today is what defines an inclusive workplace culture
AB 46:24 to you, when I think of an inclusive workplace culture, I first think of safety. And I think of the teams or workplace cultures where people feel like they can be themselves and they can take risks, exploring ideas, and putting thoughts out there that may not be the same as everybody else. But there is a level of not only acceptance, but appreciation for that level of diversity. And that there is trust that they can do that. And they aren’t going to be excluded or retaliated against or feel like they have to conform in order to be successful. So for me, an inclusive culture is one that is radically, like welcoming, and also makes people feel safe. I love
JM 47:15 that. I’m gonna just like drop a mic right there. That’s great. Everything you’ve shared with me today, including, you know, like that radical welcoming, and the shell thing. I’m like, yep, that’s my safe place for sure. Different ways of being and then like, you know, style and substance, you know, considering those things. So, again, just thank you so much for being here. Today, I’m so happy to have provided a platform to your voice to talk about this really, like I feel like this topic is sometimes just like skirted over in regards to how we can support different types of teammates and workers with the AI in mind, because it is including that. So again, just thank you so much for being here and sharing all the specifics.
AB 47:52 Thanks for having me. And just for creating a platform for the conversation, I think there are obvious elements of diversity that we talk about and how they impact people’s experiences in the workplace. I think this is a dimension of diversity that really significantly impacts how people experience the workplace and how they’re viewed inside of it. And so I hope that there are more discussions around it. And I really hope that if people are introverted, and feeling as though those are not the qualities that can propel them into leadership, or that are valuable that this changes their mind and implores them to read more about it and to better understand themselves so that they first can understand where their value comes from how to leverage that power that introversion brings, and be able to articulate what they need, that they can achieve their goals.
JM 48:45 Thank you for joining us today. As we continue to explore how we can enable diversity at work, follow us and get notified of our latest episodes. Also, we want to hear from you. Please like rate and review us on your podcast app or wherever you’re listening in. If you want to contact us, please visit diverseek.com – that is d i v e r s e e k.com This episode was produced by Madhu Nair, edited by Cansin Dalak, researched by JOLENE MEI, music composed by Nicholas Lang and our production team includes Keisha Williams, Prashant Balbhar and Maria Querina. I am your host JOLENE MEI and you have been listening to DIVERSEEK.
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